Right of way - what would you do???

[U4]

The skipper may have been concentrating so much that saying 'thanks' didnt even enter his mind - therefore making him appear rude when in fact he may be quite a nice bloke....

Just a thought....

 

[timbartlett]

The rule of common sense and good seamanship, or are you saying any idiot can barge their way out into a channel with no regard for anyone else? If you want colregs, 2a should cover it. I don't think anyone on here would defend a vessel, shall we say a sailing boat for instance, claiming stand on rights to enter a busy channel and causing other boats to take avoiding action.

From the original post it sounds to me that the helm of the larger vessels was using the principle of "might is right" which is neither good seamanship or in accordance with any rules.

Damn. I thought for a moment that you might come up with something interesting... but it turns out to be the old "Rule 2 lets me throw all the other rules in the bin" myth.

Rule 15 says that a power driven vessel gives way to one that is crossing from starboard, and rule 9 says that vessels under 20m must not impede those that are confined to a narrow channel or fairway. In this case, both rules point to the same conclusion, so we don't even have the fun of discussing which takes precedence.

Rule 2b allows you to depart from the other rules in special circumstances (which these are not).
Rule 2a (the one you mention) says "Nothing in these rules shall exonerate any vessel or the owner master or crew thereof from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these rules etc.etc.etc." -- almost the exact opposite of how it is so often misquoted !!

And BTW there is no such thing as "Stand on rights". Standing on is a responsibility and when it applies, it is compulsory... not an option.

 

[[2068]]

I have skimmed through the Hamble river harbour masters directions and byelaws, and I can't find anything to do with leaving a marina / entering a channel.

Something similar happened at Cowes a few weeks back. I was in the tender going up the Medina with provisions, and a large sailing yacht (50ft +) came out of a marina under power at some speed into the busy channel. I could see the moving mast a fair way off, and had to alter course a little bit to pass astern, no problem really: I did get a wave of acknowledgment in return. The vessel to my left had to make a more substantial alteration of course and speed, pretty much having to come to a stop. I had a bit of a chuckle at this point. because the vessel to my left happened to be the Harbour Master. I turned my head around to check astern after the event, as you do, and the Harbour Master and the Sailing Yacht did appear to be having some sort of friendly chat.

A vessel that came out of a Marina and collided with another vessel in a busy channel might be held to have violated Rule 7 - Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists - i.e. You should be aware that the channel is busy. Or possibly Rule 6 - Safe Speed.

 

[AndieMac]

Perhaps the Helsman was cr*pping himself, could have been his first time with said vessel, we don't know
Too scared to lift a finger or two to wave as it were!

I was thinking a similar thing....he may have had the engines and thrusters (alternating between four levers) screaming to hold station and course (without being there to see it), it doesn't take much beam on wind to start transverse movement.

 

[kcrane]

As a resident at Swanwick I'd say the de facto practice is for boats coming out of the marina to give way to boats already in the river. Wouldn't help in a formal disagreement of course.

OP makes the point that it was HW but normally the current does run fairly smartish across the ends of the pontoons. A few forumites warned me when we moved there. I can imagine that the Princess skipper was concerned about being broadside on.

Chances are the skipper was a Princess employee or contractor and so was experienced. Princess have based themselves at Swanwick in order to tempt me to upgrade and they swap the boats around all day long.

 

[dt4134]

Damn. I thought for a moment that you might come up with something interesting... but it turns out to be the old "Rule 2 lets me throw all the other rules in the bin" myth.

Rule 15 says that a power driven vessel gives way to one that is crossing from starboard, and rule 9 says that vessels under 20m must not impede those that are confined to a narrow channel or fairway. In this case, both rules point to the same conclusion, so we don't even have the fun of discussing which takes precedence.

Rule 2b allows you to depart from the other rules in special circumstances (which these are not).
Rule 2a (the one you mention) says "Nothing in these rules shall exonerate any vessel or the owner master or crew thereof from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these rules etc.etc.etc." -- almost the exact opposite of how it is so often misquoted !!

And BTW there is no such thing as "Stand on rights". Standing on is a responsibility and when it applies, it is compulsory... not an option.

That's an interesting one.

I've only been up to Swanwick a few times, but my recollection is that the fairway is reasonably narrow, not a great deal wider than you'd normally get in the lanes between pontoons in a marina. So anyway, lets try to reconstruct it step by step. I hope the OP will correct any wrong assumptions I make.

So... initially the OP is proceeding up the fairway at a steady speed. He's already identified it was slack water. Wind currently unknown, but let's assume not much as it's pretty sheltered that far up the Hamble.

The large 80' to 90' motorboat has a good view from up on high and should reasonably be aware of the OP (rule 5) whilst he is leaving his berth. I'm assuming at this point that no risk of collision exists.

The large mobo then turns and accelerates down the lane between pontoons. Let's assume until we get data from the OP that this is say no more than 100 to 200 yds from the OP's boat. The risk of collision now appears.

OP gives way a bit miffed.

The large mobo turns in the fairway in very close proximity to the OP. There's no way he can't turn after deciding to leave the marina if he's to avoid boats on the other side of the fairway.

Do you believe that creating the risk of collision in such close proximity to the OP is within the rights & responsibilities of the 'stand on' vessel?

Would the situation be different if a large tanker decided to cast off and leave a dock just as another was proceeding up the river past the dock? I'm thinking IRPCS here so assume no VTS in place.


By the way, for the other posters, I couldn't find the by-law I posted about either. I'm certain I didn't make it up. Hopefully I'll stumble across the original source sooner or later, whether authoritive or not.

 

[l'escargot]

Damn. I thought for a moment that you might come up with something interesting... but it turns out to be the old "Rule 2 lets me throw all the other rules in the bin"

Only if you choose to ignore "common sense and good seamanship". But then I would expect you to do that in order to waste time on semantics.

Any vessel that left a marina and got tee boned crossing the channel because they had no regard for vessels already using that channel in an appropriate manner would find themselves in a difficult position.

 

[Nick_H]

Damn. I thought for a moment that you might come up with something interesting... but it turns out to be the old "Rule 2 lets me throw all the other rules in the bin" myth.

Rule 15 says that a power driven vessel gives way to one that is crossing from starboard, and rule 9 says that vessels under 20m must not impede those that are confined to a narrow channel or fairway. In this case, both rules point to the same conclusion, so we don't even have the fun of discussing which takes precedence.

If you want to try and apply the col regs to this, then the Princess has altered his speed at the last minute (from zero to idle) to create the collision situation, so has not maintained a constant course and speed. Had he maintained a constant speed (zero), then there clearly wouldn't have been a risk of collision as he'd have remained stationary. Personally I think the most dangerous thing here is to try and apply the Col Regs in situations they weren't intended to cover, and where common sense and courtesy clearly have more relevance.

 

[benjenbav]

By the way, for the other posters, I couldn't find the by-law I posted about either. I'm certain I didn't make it up. Hopefully I'll stumble across the original source sooner or later, whether authoritive or not.

I think the Hamble bye-laws may have been modified because "fairway" is defined but then the defined term is not used at all in the bye-laws. So maybe there was something and now it's been removed.

 

[epervier]

I'll probably get flamed for this, but, isn't it easier to just have a mutter to yourself and move on, rather than brood over what might have been, if's and why's are now all irrelevant, you did the right thing at the right time to avoid a collision, which may I remind the panel is your first duty as the skipper, also would you really take on a vessel 3 times your length and 10 times your weight, common sense is the answer, not bloody col regs.

 

[timbartlett]

But then I would expect you to do that in order to waste time on semantics.

Perhaps some of your customers are in their "difficult position" because they -- like you -- regard rules as "semantics". And as the OP asked "what is the correct 'rule of the road'? I think he was asking what the rules say. Not what you think they ought to say, or your excuses for ignoring them whenever it suits you.

If you want to try and apply the col regs to this, then the Princess has altered his speed at the last minute (from zero to idle) to create the collision situation, so has not maintained a constant course and speed. ...

Now this would have been a much more interesting discussion. Unfortunately, I have learned my lesson from the great authority on colregs ("Just shout Rule 2 and do what you like") and won't be bothering with such pointless semantics. But if you are interested in a surprising legal precedent try Googling "Windsor Roanake 1908 Lord Alberstone".

 

[Hurricane]

Very few of the above comments you've all made have much consideration for the Princess.
I'm sure most of you havent driven a large boat like this before.
OK - so niether have I - but I have driven our 20m 45 ton Princess out of the same marina fairway that you are talking about and I do have considerable sympathy for the Princess' skipper.

It seems to me that you did exactly the correvt thing - and avoided an incident and perhaps if you had some previous experience in manouvering a large boat you would have realised even more how the Princess skipper probably couldnt have done much else.

Quite a few of us know that particular corner of the Hamble and how difficult it is with the tide running round the corner.

I suspect that some on this forum will say that its easier the bigger the boat gets but personally, I dont think so. You only had a few tons to manouver - I bet that the Princess was well over 80 or 90 tons - with that weight any colision with surrounding boats would have been catastrophic.

So, my comments are - dont rely too much on col regs - just use your common sence and give the larger boats room to move. All of which, I'm sure you actually did.

Just my views.

 

[timbartlett]

How much might is right?

No. I'm sorry. I tried to keep away, but can't resist it.

It seems to me that there are two quite distinct varieties of "commonsense" advocated here:-
(A) says "Boat A is in the channel, Boat B is coming out of a side turning, so B should give way
(B) says "Boat A is small and has plenty of room to manoeuvre, Boat B is large and has very limited room to manoeuvre so A should give way"

Both types of commonsense have some validity. The snag I can see is that it is impossible for the skipper of either vessel to know which version is being applied by the skipper of the other.

I can't work out how to add a poll to this post, but as a matter of interest, if you are in an 11m motorboat, heading up a channel which is wide enough for you to do a complete U turn -- how big must the crossing vessel be before you decide that Commonsense B (Might is Right) takes over from Commonsense A (Major road)?
5m?
11m?
20m?
50m?
Bigger?
Something else?

 

[dt4134]

Now this would have been a much more interesting discussion. Unfortunately, I have learned my lesson from the great authority on colregs ("Just shout Rule 2 and do what you like") and won't be bothering with such pointless semantics.

But if you are interested in a surprising legal precedent try Googling "Windsor Roanake 1908 Lord Alberstone".

I, for one, am interested in in what you think is the definite definition of the IRPCS. I've done the websearch and interestingly it also came up with Manchester-Regiment - Clan Mackenzie case of 1938. Surely that is more applicible to a boat casting off and leaving a marina and having a close quarters situation with another vessel itself in quite restricted channel when that vessel should reasonably have been visible sufficiently in advance if he'd been keeping a proper lookout.

Ok, we can have lots of discussion on common sense, and he was probably using the unwritten 'might is right' rule (so presumably wouldn't have done it if the OP had a steel vessel with a ferocious bow) but I'm interested in what the real IRPCS say.


Edit: OK, you started answering some of the points whilst I was still writing.

 

[David of Essex]

My first thing to do would get out of the way of danger. No use lying in the water and your child is drowning say, ''I was right''.
David

 

[oldharry]

Very unseamanlike on the part of the bigger boat IMHO, but he would probably claim to be a 'larger vessel constrained in ability to manoever' therefore everyone should give way to him, and because of his size, you should have seen him coming anyway?

Doesnt mean its Ok just to barge out in to the channel like that. A quiet chat with the HM might be appropriate - a lot of the skippers of these bigger boats are qualified 'professionals' (oxymoron in this case?) and can be called to account by the HM.

 

[Nick_H]

Very few of the above comments you've all made have much consideration for the Princess.
I'm sure most of you havent driven a large boat like this before.
OK - so niether have I - but I have driven our 20m 45 ton Princess out of the same marina fairway that you are talking about and I do have considerable sympathy for the Princess' skipper.

It seems to me that you did exactly the correvt thing - and avoided an incident and perhaps if you had some previous experience in manouvering a large boat you would have realised even more how the Princess skipper probably couldnt have done much else.

Quite a few of us know that particular corner of the Hamble and how difficult it is with the tide running round the corner.

I suspect that some on this forum will say that its easier the bigger the boat gets but personally, I dont think so. You only had a few tons to manouver - I bet that the Princess was well over 80 or 90 tons - with that weight any colision with surrounding boats would have been catastrophic.

So, my comments are - dont rely too much on col regs - just use your common sence and give the larger boats room to move. All of which, I'm sure you actually did.

Just my views.

Whilst I agree with most of what you say Mike, there seems to be an inference that the Princess driver had no option but to pull out into the river in front of other boats. That surely can't be right. If the cross tide makes it impossible to hold position and wait for a gap in the traffic, then they surely need to make some other arrangement, maybe a spotter on the end of the pontoon, or the marina launch in the water, or warps to hold position until it's safe to go?

 

[timbartlett]

I, for one, am interested in in what you think is the definite definition of the IRPCS. I've done the websearch and interestingly it also came up with Manchester-Regiment - Clan Mackenzie case of 1938.

FWIW, the Manchester Regiment-Clan Mackenzie judgement is much more in line with what I think most people would expect -- that the stand on vessel is not entitled to make any apparently random manoeuvre it likes and still expect the give way vessel to be able to avoid it.

I think the reason these two cases appear on the same page of Cockroft and Lameijer is to emphasise the contrast between them, and to make the point that in the Windsor-Roanoke case the manoeuvre by the stand-on vessel was predictable, whereas in the Manchester Regiment-Clan Mackenzie case it wasn't.

Maybe the question is when the two vessels saw each other -- before or after the Princess had left her berth. My feeling is that once she had left her berth, she was committed to a sequence of manoeuvres that were entirely predictable. But if she had not left her berth, then of course the OP had no way of knowing what she was about to do.

 

[dt4134]

Maybe the question is when the two vessels saw each other -- before or after the Princess had left her berth. My feeling is that once she had left her berth, she was committed to a sequence of manoeuvres that were entirely predictable. But if she had not left her berth, then of course the OP had no way of knowing what she was about to do.

I think that is the key to it. My assumption from the description of the boat and some limited knowledge of the location is that from the height of the flybridge on a boat of that size river traffic should have been visible before casting off if the skipper had been keeping an adequate lookout.

My view might have been different if both were smaller vessels where view & visibility weren't as good. However then, they'd both have more room to manouvre.

 

[Sneds]

Surely common sense dictates that you don't pull out in front of another boat causing him to take avoiding action?
Wouldn't/shouldn't you just wait for the other boat to pass by before exiting your berth?

Similar thing happened to me last weekend. reversing out of berth and down a "feeder" fairway towards the main fairway of the marina, other boat pulls straight out his mooring causing me to stop, (in reverse) wind takes me, spinning me around just missing the rudder of a v expensive sailey boat moored opposite, the perpatrator didn't even look at/see me and later in the lock was chatty and friendly - I'm sure he had no idea of my presence in the fairway which is rather worrying.