Riding sail

[zoidberg]

There's much discussion of methods recommended and used for 'heaving-to' and stopping the boat in heavy weather, such that she lies 50°-60° to the wind. Boats with a long keel and cutaway forefoot have reported difficulties.

I'm wondering whether readers have experience to share of using a 'riding sail' set up the backstay, after the fashion of 'Piota's V-twin riding sail - which is used effectively when anchored to reduce 'sailing' in gusts.

Certainly the use of a riding sail was normal practice on a 'drifter' fishing vessel around our coasts for many decades. There must be some merit....

 

[Seajet]

Doesn't work on my A22, I like the idea and tried; though a stern drogue is handy at short term anchor ( if not using an angel ) to prevent her ' sailing the anchor ' and wrapping the warp across the keel.

Snag with that and the riding sail is they'll make the boat behave differently to and take up more room than others, at crowded anchorages.

 

[LadyInBed]

Having a ketch, a reefed mizzen sheeted on the centerline works for me.

 

[Barbican]

Perhaps through rose coloured glasses I remember our Vancouver and Barbican were very well behaved when hove to, and at anchor/moored to a buoy. Our last boat however was prone to dance around a bit at anchor in a breeze, so we got a Delta/V2 riding sail (from Peter Sanders) which lessened the effect quite a bit. It took no more than a few minutes to hoist and was very light and easily stowed. I have never measured the difference with and without so I can't give an accurate value to the effect but it is significant, and enough for me to include one on the new boat.

 

[Neeves]

Hopefully NormanS will respond as he has used a riding sail, I recall.

I have never seen one in use in either Hong Kong nor Australia - a very alien concept in both places.

Jonathan

 

[RupertW]

I’ve gone for the cheaper and dual purpose option after a lot of googling and YouTubing last week. So now have a parachute drogue and will experiment hanging it from the anchor bridle with on a chain to hold it under and wire coat hangers to keep it open as it changes direction.

 

[RobbieW]

Hopefully NormanS will respond as he has used a riding sail, I recall.

I have never seen one in use in either Hong Kong nor Australia - a very alien concept in both places.

Jonathan

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?349354-Banging-on-again&highlight=piota
Krusty (sadly rip) was an advocate of v twin riding sails, he talks in the post above of picking the idea up from a NZ boat. Last time I looked the design material was still available through his profile.

 

[RobbieW]

I’ve gone for the cheaper and dual purpose option after a lot of googling and YouTubing last week. So now have a parachute drogue and will experiment hanging it from the anchor bridle with on a chain to hold it under and wire coat hangers to keep it open as it changes direction.

Have you tried this yet ? I tried a bucket in the configuration described without great success, too small perhaps but also in the wrong place for feedback to affect the system effectively. I'm much more convinced by the v twin approach but yet to try it

 

[NormanS]

Somebody rang m'lud?
I wasn't sure if the OP was referring to a riding sail at anchor, or a steadying sail for use at sea.
Yes, we have a riding sail. It's the double thickness type aka twin. Our boat is a ketch, so the luff of the sail has slides which go into the mizzen track, and the twin clews are sheeted to their respective quarters on the (substantial) taffrail. It is very effective in cutting down yawing at anchor. However, sheer lazyness, and the fact that the increased windage of the mizzen on a ketch means less yawing than on a sloop, means that we don't actually use the sail every time.

This winter, I have done away with our wind generator and its bracket, so maybe with less windage, we'll be more inclined to use the riding sail. We'll see.

 

[doug748]

I had a go at this and was not particularly impressed, however the wind speed was only in the mid 20kt range.
It did not damp down movement a great deal but it was easy to set up, and settled very quietly, even though my experimental effort is made of pretty light cloth.

I would try it again, it may well be too small to be effective or perhaps I could hoist it higher.
So the jury is still out for me. In the systems defence, Piota and Krusty used to operate in some grim conditions

 

[NormanS]

I do remember seeing Piota with her riding sail rigged, and I always thought that it seemed rather small, but that was just my uneducated opinion.

For comparison, ours, on a 36' ketch, has 3.25m luff, 1.83m foot, and 3.9m on the leach. It is made of the same material that the sailmaker uses for storm jibs. The two clews are held apart by a 1.7m "whisker pole". I have used it in up to F 9-10 without any problems.

Seajet, In #2 suggests that a boat using a riding sail will take up more room in an anchorage, which I find intriguing. Since a boat with a riding sail is guaranteed to yaw about less than one without, I wonder if he would like to explain his theory?

 

[Scomber]

I do remember seeing Piota with her riding sail rigged, and I always thought that it seemed rather small, but that was just my uneducated opinion.

For comparison, ours, on a 36' ketch, has 3.25m luff, 1.83m foot, and 3.9m on the leach. It is made of the same material that the sailmaker uses for storm jibs. The two clews are held apart by a 1.7m "whisker pole". I have used it in up to F 9-10 without any problems.

Seajet, In #2 suggests that a boat using a riding sail will take up more room in an anchorage, which I find intriguing. Since a boat with a riding sail is guaranteed to yaw about less than one without, I wonder if he would like to explain his theory?

+1 we inherited a small one with our sadler 29 and up it goes in strong winds ... certainly works and has never caused any other anchored boats a problem , noticeably settles the boat down

 

[thinwater]

a. A riding sail does NOT make a boat take more space. It settles it down.

b. A V-luff sails is 2-4 times more effect (depends on the how the boat's windage varies with aspect) for a given area. I've tested both. It also does not flap, as others may at extremes of travel. There are numerous V-designs, some quite different. Perhaps the simplest is a diamond of cloth laid over the aft half of the boom, and then hoist the boom WAY up. Really easy to set and very stable.

 

[zoidberg]

Perhaps I didn't make my query quite clear.... or perhaps people didn't read the OP right through.

I'm convinced of the merits of a V-sail at anchor.

What I'm interested in is how effective such a sail might be when seeking to 'heave-to' comforatbly in deep water.

 

[thinwater]

Perhaps I didn't make my query quite clear.... or perhaps people didn't read the OP right through.

I'm convinced of the merits of a V-sail at anchor.

What I'm interested in is how effective such a sail might be when seeking to 'heave-to' comforatbly in deep water.

Perhaps we found the post confusing, since there are two separate discussions, the second of which is talking about anchoring.

"There's much discussion of methods recommended and used for 'heaving-to' and stopping the boat in heavy weather, such that she lies 50°-60° to the wind. Boats with a long keel and cutaway forefoot have reported difficulties.

I'm wondering whether readers have experience to share of using a 'riding sail' set up the backstay, after the fashion of 'Piota's V-twin riding sail - which is used effectively when anchored to reduce 'sailing' in gusts."

I can imagine using a riding sail as the aft sail. It would need to be stronger and rigged differently (to take more side force). I'm guessing most designs wouldn't hold up at that angle, but the over-boom version might make sense. Sounds like expereiment time.

 

[NormanS]

Perhaps I didn't make my query quite clear.... or perhaps people didn't read the OP right through.

I'm convinced of the merits of a V-sail at anchor.

What I'm interested in is how effective such a sail might be when seeking to 'heave-to' comforatbly in deep water.

Your initial post was not clear, which is why I said in #9, that I didn't know whether you meant a riding sail at anchor, or a steadying sail at sea.
I certainly wouldn't use my twin sail at sea. While it might keep the boat approximately head to wind, it would tend to cause sternway, which I would definitely not want. A normal mizzen is quite good as a steadying sail, as evidenced by the number of small creel boats thus equipped.

 

[LadyInBed]

What I'm interested in is how effective such a sail might be when seeking to 'heave-to' comforatbly in deep water.

When I heave-to I've found that the mizzen only hinders the process as it try's to point the boat to wind, so has to be sheeted out as far as possible or dropped.
I can only assume that any other form of stay sail will have the same effect.

 

[knuterikt]

Snag with that and the riding sail is they'll make the boat behave differently to and take up more room than others, at crowded anchorages.

Can you explain the “talke up more room” part ?
I have never seen boats at anchor swing at full sync, so if the one with is sailing less at it’s anchor it should not create any problems.

 

[thinwater]

...I can imagine using a riding sail as the aft sail. It would need to be stronger and rigged differently (to take more side force). I'm guessing most designs wouldn't hold up at that angle, but the over-boom version might make sense. Sounds like expereiment time.

I think I should clarify. A riding sail could be used to replace the mainsail in a 2-sail heave to set-up, if the riding sail were strongly rigged, but I believe only the over-boom style could be strong enough. The others are not intended to take the wind from that angle and would probably be over stressed. The advantage of using an over boom sail instead of a deeply reefed mainsail might be that it is farther back and lower down. But the bottom line is you need to experiment in blustery weather. What I really think would happen is that the boat would make too much stern way and eventually might just fall off.

The only time a V-riding sail might be used alone (and the over-boom type was designed for this) is riding to a parachute sea anchor. My understanding, from Paratech, is that the added windage and steadying influence can make a big difference, though I have no experience (multihulls use a bridle). But I don't understand this to be the OP's question.

 

[geem]

When I heave-to I've found that the mizzen only hinders the process as it try's to point the boat to wind, so has to be sheeted out as far as possible or dropped.
I can only assume that any other form of stay sail will have the same effect.

I have succesfully heaved to under mizzen and furled genoa in the past in F7 off Pastow waiting for the tide. It worked a treat.