Rhone Upstream to Lyon

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MASH

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Anyone with experience of making this trip? I'm thinking of doing it in end Oct, early Nov this year in a 5.5Kt boat. What speed does the current run at, and when is it at its minimum?

I'd also appreciate advice on winter layup places Lyon area or a bit further up towards Paris, and how far upstream can I get with mast up (12m)
 
Didn't Grehan partly answer the current issue in a previous post.. or am I dreaming?

Yes, we did it last year in September/early October. We had a very dry and sunny trip with very little current (max 2 knots at the fast bits below the locks). But the flow was lower than the seasonal norm.

By Oct/November, the seasonal norm is for much higher flow, as early winter rains set in. but I'm sure it will vary a lot, and if you are willing to sit it out if the flow is high (websites available to tell you.. look it up.. link from Grehan's site) and also to avoid the mistral, then i guess you could do it.

The worst bit is the lower bit.. from Port St Loius to Avignon. The pontoons in Arles were not there when we went through so we had to do about 80k/50 miles in one hop up to Avignon. Of course you will have less light to do such a long hop, or will have do something creative about an intermediate stop.

Looks from the pilot you would not get far with a mast up. Arles would stop you, and there's nowhere to dismast there.. so do it in Port st Louis.

I think you need to do some research.. have you looked at Grehan's excellent website?. http://french-waterways.com. You will find many answers to your questions there.

Overwintering with a liveaboard population? Chalon, St jean de Losne, Auxonne...but may already be full. Look for other places in grehan's website.
 
Thanks Carol. Yes, Gehan did answer some questions but yours is the first figure I've seen on any website re flow speed which was one of the things I wanted to know about. The guides are just that, guides. Specific info is harder to find, hence the questions.
 
Actually, there are sites which are not "guides" but are practical resources which I used on a day to day basis to check current flow etc.

Look at, for example.. the CNR website: info rhone.. (http://www.inforhone.fr/inforhone/en/commun/carte.aspx?chapitre=naviguer) which gives you flow rates in M3 per second (current conditions). You then have to to interpret it to convert it to knots.. I set up a spreadsheet with basic conversion rates following advice from Grehan's site (http://www.french-waterways.com/waterways/rhone.html and http://www.french-waterways.com/practicalities/weather-wind-waterflow.html#rhone

In the latter web page there is a very useful table which gives you averages of flow rates on the rhone at different points up the river for each month of the year. Just on a quick look, I can see that November flow is on average 40-50% higher than sept flow (and ours was below average). So you could see 3-4 knots at the fastest bits on average.... and much more if its wet. But it does vary quite abit even from mile to mile.. with just some short bits with the highest flow.

if its very wet I might be more worried about debris too... bloody big trees washed up at various points!
 
Agree with all the above. We we did it in October a few years ago & it was bl00dy cold. Wind blowing straight down the Rhone from the Alps. Left Port St Louis in sunshine & shorts. Within half a day woolly hats & wearing all our clothes. Next time I'll make sure that the boat has heating......
 
Carolwildbird said:
Didn't Grehan partly answer the current issue in a previous post.. or am I dreaming?

Yes, we did it last year in September/early October. We had a very dry and sunny trip with very little current (max 2 knots at the fast bits below the locks). But the flow was lower than the seasonal norm.

By Oct/November, the seasonal norm is for much higher flow, as early winter rains set in. but I'm sure it will vary a lot, and if you are willing to sit it out if the flow is high (websites available to tell you.. look it up.. link from Grehan's site) and also to avoid the mistral, then i guess you could do it.

The worst bit is the lower bit.. from Port St Loius to Avignon. The pontoons in Arles were not there when we went through so we had to do about 80k/50 miles in one hop up to Avignon. Of course you will have less light to do such a long hop, or will have do something creative about an intermediate stop.

Looks from the pilot you would not get far with a mast up. Arles would stop you, and there's nowhere to dismast there.. so do it in Port st Louis.

I think you need to do some research.. have you looked at Grehan's excellent website?. http://french-waterways.com. You will find many answers to your questions there.

Overwintering with a liveaboard population? Chalon, St jean de Losne, Auxonne...but may already be full. Look for other places in grehan's website.
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Grehan is your man but just 2 comments. There is a restaurant ship in Arles, where, I am told, you can raft up.

Your mast will stop you well before Arles. There are 2 low power cables.
 
MASH said:
Thanks Carol. Yes, Gehan did answer some questions but yours is the first figure I've seen on any website re flow speed which was one of the things I wanted to know about. The guides are just that, guides. Specific info is harder to find, hence the questions.
Click to expand...
My website is based on personal experience - my own and others' and my Rhone page gives an indication of flow speed, which is highly dependent on the river profile, width, depth etc etc. The Rhone company website gives up to the minute flow information in volume per second units.
 
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MASH said:
Anyone with experience of making this trip? I'm thinking of doing it in end Oct, early Nov this year in a 5.5Kt boat. What speed does the current run at, and when is it at its minimum?

I'd also appreciate advice on winter layup places Lyon area or a bit further up towards Paris, and how far upstream can I get with mast up (12m)
Click to expand...

I did the trip last July/August, although I entered France at Agde (River Herault) and joined the Rhone (from Le petit Rhone) just above Arles. You'll tend to check the current for you location on a daily basis using the links above.

I'm indebted to Grehan for his website (both when researching and during the trip itself - he's managed to cover much more than any Fluvival guide is ever likely to!).

The reason I'm posting - I did it in a 5.5kt boat. I had a few memorable days where I didn't make much progress at all. (The most memorable on log was on the Montdragon chute - took me 3hours to travel the last 5km into Viviers!). But you get smart and choose your windows. Personally, I discovered I could make best progress more often than not during the first half of the day (6:30am to 12pm) on the tough stretches. I imagine it would be pure fustration to be in a hurry. Very enjoyable if you got time.

Winter layup? - I had initially considered Decize, but thankfully decided to lift out on recommendation. I can recommend Simon Evans Yard at Migennes on the River Yonne. Its literally a 7minute stroll to the train station and then an hour's ride into Paris. http://www.evans-marine.fr/

Demast'd at Agde - had to - great facitilities there (ref. Grehan).
 
Thanks folks, the picture is beginning to develop, but providing "info" like flow rates in square cubits per nanosecond is as much use as a chocolate teapot - it might be of use or interest to a hydrographer but to a boater its just gobbledegook. One has to know knots to make any kind of judgement and its too late to find out the hard way half way up the river in November. I can't afford to risk sailing all that way from Turkey to get spat back into the Med and rapacious marina fees for a year before I can try again...(can't take time off in the summer)

How much of the river is "fast flow" - again, data is needed in units of distance or %. How long are they? 5Km isn't much of a problem but 50 would be...What causes those flow rate changes by time of day? Is it merely the frequency of lock-openings? Does this imply surges or variations in flowrate close downstream of locks that gradually eases into a steady flow up (or rather down) to the next one? I'm just trying to understand what I'm getting into!

Where do the fast bits cease? Is there more of this above Lyon en-route to Paris?

Thanks!
 
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MASH said:
Thanks folks, the picture is beginning to develop, but providing "info" like flow rates in square cubits per nanosecond is as much use as a chocolate teapot - it might be of use or interest to a hydrographer but to a boater its just gobbledegook. One has to know knots to make any kind of judgement and its too late to find out the hard way half way up the river in November. I can't afford to risk sailing all that way from Turkey to get spat back into the Med and rapacious marina fees for a year before I can try again...(can't take time off in the summer)
Click to expand...

The conversion factors are there Mash - although dividing the volumetric flow rate by an averaged river cross sectional area is never going to be exact you'll appreciate. The published typical monthly averages will give you a relative indication, but can vary from year to year also I imagine.

MASH said:
How much of the river is "fast flow" - again, data is needed in units of distance or %. How long are they? 5Km isn't much of a problem but 50 would be...What causes those flow rate changes by time of day? Is it merely the frequency of lock-openings? Does this imply surges or variations in flowrate close downstream of locks that gradually eases into a steady flow up (or rather down) to the next one? I'm just trying to understand what I'm getting into!
Click to expand...

From my own experience (The Rhone, July 2011), there were very few days I couldn't set out and not make my intended destination, (the Montdragon chute being an exception - turning back, to try another day was always an option - but one I never had to use). It's typically easier above the locks than below them. The waiting pontoons at the locks are useful - I often stayed on them overnight).

MASH said:
Where do the fast bits cease? Is there more of this above Lyon en-route to Paris?
Thanks!
Click to expand...

I turned left into the Saone at Lyon. I found the counter current nowhere near that of the Rhone (July 2011). I then took the western canal route to the Seine, where my fitness level was put to the test (single handed thru the canals). I lost about 2 stone, which was no harm in my case. Very enjoyable trip, made all the more so when there is no time pressures I believe.
 
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My own experience was in June 2007, there had been a great deal of rain in the Alps plus snow melt had made the stream very strong and much deeper with flooding in low lying areas.
From Arles to Lyon the flow was between 2 1/2 and 4 kn. The strongest between narrows and some bridges, the inside of bends have a much slower flow which means zig-zagging from side to side when forward vision and traffic allow. There is also the Mistral to consider but that is a bit of a lottery.
The Saone is a much nicer experience, slower, cleaner and less traffic, 1 to 3 kn. Fuel at a barge just after entering the Saone. Lyon is not at all secure so careful when leaving the boat for just a few minutes. Re fuel wherever you can, supermarkets beside the canal or barges.
After Challon you have a couple of choices, I used the Canal du Centre which is very scenic but in November will probably be ice bound and Central France in winter can be extremely cold ( Continental Mass ) hot in summer, cold in winter. July, August or September would be my choice.
Good luck.
 
Using restaurant boat in Arles. I was told a few days ago that, that is no longer allowed, why I am not sure.Probably because too many peeps were using it as a convenience.

Apart from Villebruges (?) there is nowhere really secure between Port St.Louis and Avignon.

There is the old canal just south of Arles, but I have not tried it and do not know any one who has.

However you could always enter The Petit Rhone and as I have said before, there is a small pontoon on the left bank, just underneath the first bridge. A suspension bridge, there is a small village just over bridge for basics. Arles 2- 3 miles away
 
Roj1 said:
........However you could always enter The Petit Rhone and as I have said before, there is a small pontoon on the left bank, just underneath the first bridge. A suspension bridge, there is a small village just over bridge for basics. Arles 2- 3 miles away
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I remember stopping here for a final gearbox topup before heading onto the Rhone, an exceptionally well place pontoon I thought.

As an option, you could condiser 2 stages Mash? If you got this far, St. Gilles isn't far away & appeared to me like a nice spot to leave a boat (St. Gilles itself is very nice & they get close to a med. climate). Just a matter of following the petit Rhone for a bit to enter the Canal Rhone a Sete.

Annual rates were surprisingly reasonable from memory, Although no cranes/travellifts on site, there were plenty of access points for one, which leaves one's options open.
 
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Rhone

We climbed the Rhone using only a wing engine and it was in spring. It is possible if you keep well out to the edge of the channel, but do not go outside the marker piles.
I've done this voyage about half a dozen times.
Current is stronger just below (aval) the locks. Check with the chart and approach the lock on the side with mooring. Try not to cross in the hairy bits.
Pinch point is the bridge at Tarascon; do that and you should be OK.
There are overnight moorings for small craft at all locks but it is often nicer to anchor for the night, well off the channel at the downstream end of a by-passed stretch of river.
To leave boat:
Vallabregues
Valence
Tournon. (VG)
Andancette
.Les Roches
Plenty of room at Lyon
Long term stop try Pont de Vaux &
Chalons
There are plenty of places now. NB St Jean de Losne has poor connectivity.
Stock up well before you start. There's a good Intermarche close to the moorings at Port St Louis.
Good luck. It's a good journey
 
Aah! You guys are the business! This is just what I'm after! Thank you all!

Anchoring. How much of this can you do? Is it Kosher? The guide books don't make this clear at all...
How easy is it to tie up foc? I'd like to get an idea of how much I'm going to need to pay for nightstops...and how much I can camp wild.

Long stops.Any reccomends for winter stops somewhere Lyon - ish? Dry land preferred.

Cheers!!
 
lyon

Lyon is not at all secure
Stopped @Lyon in June - new marina where they take security seriously, but it only works if boaters use the gates properly.

John G
 
Rhone

Anchoring.
When the Rhone was canalised, a number of the bendy nits were by-passed. These make good anchorages, though the stream can be strong. As you are not likely to swing, plenty of chain is advised.Do NOT anchor at upstream end of a by-passed bendy bit. NOT NOT.
Freebies are disappearing fast in France, so some of the following may not be available.
Roquemaure -- stone quay on left if montant. kp 222. provisions in village. Bullring.
St Etienne left bank. pontoon. kp 204 elementray provisions close by
Viviers. Junction off main river on left I know there has been some developments here since I last moored in a 27 metre barge.. No services then
Port de Cruas. kp 145 high stone quay on left which slopes back. Not comfortable but an emergency stop. best go on to
Le Bourg kp 133. Good stone quay in village.
Avoid quay at La Voulte. it's difficult.
Valence marina on right kp 112.
Possibility of mediocre quay at laRoche de Glun kp 98. in side alley to left.
Tournon kp91 municipal mooring not free but a "must" stop In town one of the best raffineur des fromages in France.
Andancette. Under gridge on right. pontoon. excellent syop kp 69
Les Roches de Condrieu marina at 41 on right. Arm and a leg stuff.
Current getting strongish up here.
Givors kp 18 on left near bridge. Likely to be busy.
That's about all I can remember.
Do buy the Carte Fluviale. Costs but really essential.
At Lyon I always moored by the old Bourse de Frettement.on River Saone near Perrache. Fuel barge there. Noisy and busy with lovers (voyeur's paradise) Qhai de Marechal Foche.
G'bye and bon voyage.
 
Rest boat

Roj1 said:
Using restaurant boat in Arles. I was told a few days ago that, that is no longer allowed, why I am not sure.Probably because too many peeps were using it as a convenience.

Apart from Villebruges (?) there is nowhere really secure between Port St.Louis and Avignon.

There is the old canal just south of Arles, but I have not tried it and do not know any one who has.

However you could always enter The Petit Rhone and as I have said before, there is a small pontoon on the left bank, just underneath the first bridge. A suspension bridge, there is a small village just over bridge for basics. Arles 2- 3 miles away
Click to expand...

Moored to rest boat in July - no problem if you have dinner there.

John G
 
from med to channel

Grehan said:
binch's information is basically sound, but unfortunately in some places out of date. I absolutely agree about getting the Rhone Fluviacarte.
River Rhone navigation guide (as up to date as I can make it - E&OE)
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I'm an italian sailor and I'm new in this forum where finally Ive found some important information that I haven't yet found so far ( mainly about the stream speed in the river rhone).
It's a long time I'm thinking about a navigation from med to channel and I'm sure that in this forum I can find many other informations since it seems that most of you have already travelled on the same way up and down stream.
First of all , can anyone tell me if it's possible to make this travel with a sailing boat that has a daught of about mt.1,60 and a maximum speed of about knots 5,5-6,0 ?
I thank you in advance for informations.
max
 
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