Reverse cycle air con / heating info

rafiki_ said:
H2 can be used in IC engines. This is the JCB, Caterpillar, John Deere approach. They can use their current diesels, modified to run on H2 and save gazzilions on batteries and e motors. The same tech will be used for HGV’s. Batteries don’t have the power density. A BEV 44 tonne truck will have 18 tonnes of batteries. The tech doesn’t work for freight, except local delivery. In the future, there will be synthetic fuels that will work as diesel. Probably 10 years away from economic viability. We will be using this in our boats.
Click to expand...
Well yes, edge cases like that, but we were talking about cars and I don't understand the attraction of hydrogen rather than battery.
 
Last edited:
Clash said:
Edit: Also (and maybe it's just me) but I just would not like to be sitting on a boat full of a highly explosive gas at a pressure of 700 bar.
Click to expand...
I know it is a different scale but for decades, we have been driving down our roads sitting on a very unstable liquid (petroleum).
And we are happy to run our outboard motors on the same fluid.
It is just a matter of the scale of the risk.
We have also standards that transport LPG around our road network - which gets closer to the risk of Hydrogen.

For me, Electric devices driven by batteries are just a "stop gap" until something better comes along.
As I said above, I was talking to a geologist recently who believes that we have similar reserves of Hydrogen to Oil that can be harvested in a similar way.
IMO, Hydrogen has got to be the fuel of the future.
 
rafiki_ said:
H2 can be used in IC engines. This is the JCB, Caterpillar, John Deere approach. They can use their current diesels, modified to run on H2 and save gazzilions on batteries and e motors. The same tech will be used for HGV’s. Batteries don’t have the power density. A BEV 44 tonne truck will have 18 tonnes of batteries. The tech doesn’t work for freight, except local delivery. In the future, there will be synthetic fuels that will work as diesel. Probably 10 years away from economic viability. We will be using this in our boats.
Click to expand...
I used to fill my Citroen CX up with 100% bio-diesel made from rape-seed in Munich.
In 1995. It was marginally cheaper than diesel and was not subsidized (except that it did not have any fuel taxes on it - just VAT).

Using electricity to make hydrogen, transporting the hydrogen to filling stations and then burning it in ICE engines is extremely inefficient compared to putting electricity into batteries and using that for propulsion. Also at the moment ICE engines do not last well when running on hydrogen. Things are slightly better when using a fuel cell.

There are uses for hydrogen, but it is not for 40 ton trucks.

Electric 40 ton trucks for long distance haulage are not practicable. Yet. But it I think in few years time we will see trucks with ranges which when fully loaded will cover a drivers full working day. Then there will be chargers on major arteries to recharge them while the driver is off the clock.

For instance this Volvo battery electric heavy duty truck is almost there. And that was a few years ago.

Volvo’s heavy-duty electric truck is put to the test: excels in both range and energy efficiency
 
Hurricane said:
I know it is a different scale but for decades, we have been driving down our roads sitting on a very unstable liquid (petroleum).
And we are happy to run our outboard motors on the same fluid.
It is just a matter of the scale of the risk.
We have also standards that transport LPG around our road network - which gets closer to the risk of Hydrogen.
Click to expand...
It is a vastly different scale. 700 bar for hydrogen, 14 bar max for LPG. Petrol fumes, less than 1 bar. I know which I'd prefer to accept the risk on. And which I would not.
Hurricane said:
For me, Electric devices driven by batteries are just a "stop gap" until something better comes along.
Click to expand...
A "stop gap" that is now in production in practically every corner of the world and in widespread use. Massive investment in new battery technologies such as silicon anode, solid state, graphene aluminium and LiFePo. I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.
Hurricane said:
As I said above, I was talking to a geologist recently who believes that we have similar reserves of Hydrogen to Oil that can be harvested in a similar way.
IMO, Hydrogen has got to be the fuel of the future.
Click to expand...
It's funny how all these "developments" with hydrogen are just over the horizon, out of sight, but if we just wait... I wonder why that is.
 
I drive a Taycan, so I’m maybe bias. I think EV’a are here to stay, however then need financial support. The depreciation is horrendous. Hydrogen… I just can’t see it overtaking EV’s. It’s really expensive and the plant is huge. I’ve seen it in Aberdeen and it’s almost laughable that they built that plant so they can ‘fill’ a bus!
 
John100156 said:
We already have H2 powered CAR's on test at the National Physical Laboratory in Teddington and also at Imperial College London South Kensington. Sadly I cannot post a recent PowerPoint presentation due to a NDA, just do a search on Hydrogen and you will find lots of sources: Fuel Cell Systems, https://www.linde-engineering.com/products-and-services/plant-components/powering-sustainable-mobility-for-generations-to-come?creative=699068987037&keyword=public hydrogen fueling stations&matchtype=b&network=s&device=c&utm_medium=paid&utm_source=Google+Ads&utm_campaign=Fueltech_MultipleGoals&utm_term=public hydrogen fueling stations&gad_source=5&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvZukgvnMigMVuqJQBh3U-TsWEAAYASAAEgIzDvD_BwE, Etc
Click to expand...
Nobody's denying the existence of H2 combustion engined cars, I mentioned them previously and there's a Wikipedia page for them. I find it laughable that this technology is somehow going to be the white knight of clean transportation when it's been around for well over a century and yet never made it into the mainstream. Just another delaying tactic for those wedded to big oil and the ICE.

It'll be along real soon now™
 
Clash said:
Nobody's denying the existence of H2 combustion engined cars, I mentioned them previously and there's a Wikipedia page for them. I find it laughable that this technology is somehow going to be the white knight of clean transportation when it's been around for well over a century and yet never made it into the mainstream. Just another delaying tactic for those wedded to big oil and the ICE.

It'll be along real soon now™
Click to expand...
I don't think thats a good argument for flaming Hydrogen, the electric motor has been around for a while as well.
 
Clash said:
Yes. But it's actually in widespread use unlike the hydrogen combustion engine.
Click to expand...
Yes but even EV's have been around for many decades too but took many years to attract mainstream investment.

Significant amounts of investment in new labs developing H2 and batteries and fuel cells is on the increase, as I may have said before, we have completed 4 lab designs in just the last couple of years developing H2 technology (and also new battery technologies), the outcome of the research will not hit the mainstream for at least 2-5 years.

IMHO We need even more investment in H2, it is after all the most abundant gas and energy source in the Universe! We must not rest on our laurels, stop sticking our heads in the sand and dragging our feet, as we have with Nuclear, before its too late and stop thinking as they did when trains were invented, that we would all suffocate at speed. :)
 
John100156 said:
Yes but even EV's have been around for many decades too but took many years to attract mainstream investment.
Click to expand...
EVs in one form or another have been in existence for well over a century. Their use declined with the advent of the ICE, but they never went away completely. Many underground and overground trains/trams have been electric for many decades and also materials handling equipment and the much derided milk float. The catalyst for the private car was the development of newer battery technologies which succeeded and improved on the lead acid battery. And the cost of those batteries has been falling rapidly with the cost per kWh expected to fall below $100 per kWh next year (it was over $1,000 per kWh in 2008).
John100156 said:
Significant amounts of investment in new labs developing H2 and batteries and fuel cells is on the increase, as I may have said before, we have completed 4 lab designs in just the last couple of years developing H2 technology (and also new battery technologies), the outcome of the research will not hit the mainstream for at least 2-5 years.
Click to expand...
That timescale seems optimistic. It's not just the technology that's required for it to become mainstream, it's the roll out around the world to manufacture the vehicles at scale that will take time. Research on the Li-ion battery started in the 1960s but didn't start wholesale manufacture until the 1990s. It then took over a decade to apply the technology to cars and over another decade for it to become mainstream.
John100156 said:
IMHO We need even more investment in H2, it is after all the most abundant gas and energy source in the Universe! We must not rest on our laurels, stop sticking our heads in the sand and dragging our feet, as we have with Nuclear, before its too late and stop thinking as they did when trains were invented, that we would all suffocate at speed. :)
Click to expand...
The cost is still prohibitive because of the difficulty of containment and distribution coupled with the cost of production. The cost of extraction of geologic hydrogen has not yet been quantified since the best method of extraction hasn't yet been arrived at. I don't doubt that hydrogen will have its uses in certain applications, but I highly doubt that it will grow beyond limited uses in transportation such as ships and HGVs (even these could be an edge case depending on how far we get with high energy density batteries).
 
We shall just have to disagree on this: its not as difficult as you may think to store and distribute H2, in the top left image below you will even see a small stacked H2 and Synthetic Air generator, that extracts H2 from the water bottle adjacent to it. We have an H2 filling station on site at NPL, we also store and distribute H2 around numerous outlets to labs in many buildings, the last H2 lab we did was at Imperial College London. Both have H2 powered cars on test! We just need to scale up and invest...!h2.jpg
 

Attachments

  • h2.jpg
    h2.jpg
    430.7 KB · Views: 5
47GC said:
I drive a Taycan, so I’m maybe bias. I think EV’a are here to stay, however then need financial support. The depreciation is horrendous. Hydrogen… I just can’t see it overtaking EV’s. It’s really expensive and the plant is huge. I’ve seen it in Aberdeen and it’s almost laughable that they built that plant so they can ‘fill’ a bus!
Click to expand...
Now I see why you took a plane to see your boat.
 
Seastoke said:
Now I see why you took a plane to see your boat.
Click to expand...
Was just time to be honest. Have done loads of trips south with only one issue! Arriving at a Lidl at 11pm to charge at 50kw! Other than that the Porsche fast charging is impressive. 0-80% in 20 minutes. By the time I grab a coffee and a toilet break I’m ready to go.
 
Clash said:
"Just" is doing a hell of a lot of very heavy lifting here.
Click to expand...
Mmm as it does with all new technologies: I expect when internal combustion engines were first developed people would have said it would never catch on as there are no fuel stations which would have to have huge buried time bombs below the forecourt, but it did relatively safely. With the alternative form of transport at that time all you needed was a bale of hay and some water, and the by-product helped grow some lovely strawberries :).

Then someone realised they could make a bob or two..... Same with EV charging...... Get the technology to work first with an abundant energy source (H2) and the rest WILL inevitably follow!

Anyway, to close this out (apologies of course to the OP for deviating) I suppose it could go H2/EV motors or H2/IC motors, I suppose we will just have to wait and see :).
.
 
John100156 said:
Then someone realised they could make a bob or two..... Same with EV charging...... Get the technology to work first with an abundant energy source (H2) and the rest WILL inevitably follow!
Click to expand...
As a matter of interest, do you have a H2 car or are you planning to get one soon?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top