Reusing rigging wire

[LadyInBed]

My wires are over size for the rig and they were cut a little long, so the bottle screws are close to the end stops.
I can't see a problem with chopping the wires down by an inch or two and reusing the screws with new cones and pins.
All this talk of dire weather and rig failure seems way over the top to me. If I had the dire weather there wouldn't be much in the way of sails to put the rig under strain, and there would be several other things to worry me more than the rig!
I have seen many more reports of mast failure than I have of wire / joint failure, and these mainly occur in boats that are being put under strain racing.
So, not something to worry your average Solent / X channel sailor?

 

[bilbobaggins]

I imagine we're considering the merits of 'preventive' maintenance versus 'repairative' maintenance, an issue well known in aviation safety circles. Costs v risks.

Decisions seems to hinge upon whether the raised risk of unacceptable failure can be reduced by other means, such as an enhanced and competent inspection regime.

I cannot remember when last I saw a cruising yacht owner actually inspect in detail all aspects of his standing rigging, and I'm tempted to think that if 'Chamac' employs a sound and frequent inspection regime - together with the resolve to replace immediately there is any suspicion of incipient failure - then the re-use ( or extended use ) of existing rigging wire may well provide an economy.

It's fair to say that 'dye penetrant' and/or 'ultrasonic' testing and interpretation may be beyond most yacht oners, but perhaps those with the hands-on skills ( Cliff, perhaps? ) might give us some pointers to an inspection regime and processes which will help those of us about to head off out of VHF 'helpme, helpme' range.

My tuppence-worth includes wiping EVERY stretch of wire rope - especially the hard-to-get-at bits - with a handful of white toilet tissue. The little tufts of white snagged here and there are 'telling' one something.....

I was told a long time ago, by a proper engineer, "You can bend stainless just once...."



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[LadyInBed]

Is that a 'Yes you would' or a 'No you wouldn't' /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[bilbobaggins]

[ QUOTE ]
"No, no, no, no, no........yes!"

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I once heard a First Secretary to HM Ambassador describe how a colleague sought to free himself from the attentions of a quite-persistent lady from one of the Latin American countries.

"Madame Julia, if a diplomat says 'Yes', he means 'Perhaps...'
If he says 'Perhaps', he means 'No....'
.
.
.
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And if he says 'No', then he's no diplomat....."

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[chamac]

"I'm tempted to think that if 'Chamac' employs a sound and frequent inspection regime - together with the resolve to replace immediately there is any suspicion of incipient failure - then the re-use ( or extended use ) of existing rigging wire may well provide an economy."

This is a bit more constructive than suggesting that I cut 6 inches off my mast.


"I was told a long time ago, by a proper engineer, "You can bend stainless just once...."

Rigging wire is in tension and well under its breaking point and is not normally bent or overstressed except at the swaging. If you remove the weak point which is the swaging and replace it with a StaLok or similar it should be less likely to fail.

I wonder if anyone has ever seen rigging wire of the right spec. for where it is used fail somewhere along its length and not at its terminations. I know that swaged termination rigging wires when tested to destruction always fail at the swagings.





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[ean_p]

think that you raise an excellent question and would like to know what the wire and terminal manufacturers would have to say on the issue. If it had any value then maybe we would be able to 're-vitalise' our rigging by the removel of 3" either end and the inclusion of a 6" screw in extention to a fitting or rigging screw for very minimal cost.

 

[yoda]

The wire is the cheap bit, doubt that the insurance company would be happy with old re-used wire.

Yoda

 

[Birdseye]

Its a risk / reward type issue. The saving is likely to be very small if it exists at all (just compare buying new wire rope + swage vs staloks) and there will be some risk.

OK most failures occurr at the bottom of the standing rigging where the wire bends as it goes into fittings. But this isnt the only place where fatigue is occurring. Its just the worst.

I suspect that most of us cut corners anyway by not replacing the bollte screws and the deck fittings when we do the wire rope anyway.

 

[Rowana]

I had to replace my forestay this year for various reasons. This cost about £60 give or take a few pence.

Assuming similar prices for backstay and shrouds, then approx £50 each for forward and aft lowers, I could replace all standing rigging for about £450. This on an 8 meter boat

If my insurance company insists on the standing rigging being replaced every 10 years, that works out at £45 a year.

Not excessive in the overall scheme of things, and I think I can live with that. Not a high price for peace of mind.

All IMHO, of course.

 

[VicMallows]

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I suspect that most of us cut corners anyway by not replacing the bollte screws and the deck fittings when we do the wire rope anyway.

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So you are now suggesting we replace the DECK FITTINGS along with everything else? What about a new boat.

Vic

 

[VictorII]

I do! My old rigging now serves a very useful life lying underneath the aft bed and lowering the waterline.

Perhaps I should get rid of it. But I like to keep one of each in case anything fails while underway and I need to make a provisional repair.

 

[ducked]

Newbie-Wannabe (dinghy ownership only to date) questions.

(a) Does this replace-all-your-rigging thing apply to 3rd party insurance, as generally required by clubs?

If so, that would mean I would need to establish the age of the rigging on anything I might buy, (which might not be possible), or take an early hit

(b) Roughly how big a hit would that be for something like, say, a Westerly Pageant?

(c) IIRC aluminium fatigues too. How often do the insurance companies require one to replace the mast?

(d) What about synthetics/carbon fibre? Or rod-rigging? Same-same? Perhaps no one knows fatigue life for this relatively novel stuff, but that wouldn't necessarily stop them specifying replacement for it.

(e) Similarly but opposite, how about galvanised wire standing rigging on a gaffer, which shouldn't fatigue or suffer invisible stress cracking?

(Last two are probably academic interest only. Not many gaffers on my local market)

All sounds a bit of a pain, and a good argument for an unstayed mast, perhaps a junk rig conversion, though thats a bigger job than I really want.

 

[Thistle]

Does anyone re-use their old rigging wire when renewing their rigging? I thought if I got a load of extra long Stalok or Norseman fittings I could renew my rigging using the old wire. Does the wire suffer from metal fatigue or age weakening? I never heard of rigging wire breaking along the wire, its usually at the swaging that it fails. It would mean I could do the job myself bit by bit. Maybe its a false economy, any ideas?

My last set of rigging is still in use ... helping plants to climb the garden walls. Doing a useful job where failure wouldn't matter.

 

[ducked]

Does anyone re-use their old rigging wire when renewing their rigging? I thought if I got a load of extra long Stalok or Norseman fittings I could renew my rigging using the old wire. Does the wire suffer from metal fatigue or age weakening? I never heard of rigging wire breaking along the wire, its usually at the swaging that it fails. It would mean I could do the job myself bit by bit. Maybe its a false economy, any ideas?

OP, I dont have the knowledge or experience for an opinion (even a recieved opinion) but someone on the Cruisersforum reports doing what seems to be pretty much what you suggest,for the same reasons, and it didn't seem to generate a snark fest feeding frenzy over there.

Use old standing rigging? Ever had a failure? - Page 2 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

"I used the old forstay and back stay for two of the lowers. All the original wire had swaged fittings I replaced them with stay locks. When I cut the old wire everything was fine. I thing the wire itself is probably good for a very long time but it's at the fittings where the problem is and these are what need to be checked every year or so. i don't recall ever hearing of the wire breaking anywhere else but at the fittings.

Its an extended discussion and I havn't read all of it, but there seems to be some anecdotal suggestion that rod rigging (apparently not as exotic as I thought) has a longer life.

 

[TSB240]

My last set of rigging is still in use ... helping plants to climb the garden walls. Doing a useful job where failure wouldn't matter.

Do you think the OP still is reusing his old wire 17 years later! Warning old thread resurrection.

 

[thinwater]

Clothes lines. I have some old rigging wire on a grape arbor; the fittings make it look very nautical. Same with old lifelines; the pelican hooks make for easy removal of the wire.

Long ago I reused rigging wire to replace much smaller lifelines or non-critical stays on small boats, where the extra size had some advantage, such as being easier to hold on to or even less stretch (multi hull-specific and difficult to explain). They would have been many times the required strength, so I was not worried about aging, within reason. It was also rigging that had been replaced very conservatively. In this age, I would use prestretched, pretensioned Amsteel instead; easy to get the size and strength without the weight, stiffness, and rigging challenges.

Now I can think of no boat use for old rigging.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

The wire is the cheap bit, doubt that the insurance company would be happy with old re-used wire.

Yoda

It's a fair point, mostly people change the rig to satisfy insurers requirements. But I'm not sure that it follows that insurers actually know anything about the construction of the rig.

Equally it's in the interests of rigging equipment manufacturers to stick with the idea that this stuff only lasts 10 years.

How often do suspension bridge cables get replaced?

 

[chamac]

Do you think the OP still is reusing his old wire 17 years later! Warning old thread resurrection.

I didn't say I reused the wire.
Obviously a valid topic if its still being discussed seventeen years later..

 

[Stemar]

Newbie-Wannabe (dinghy ownership only to date) questions.

(a) Does this replace-all-your-rigging thing apply to 3rd party insurance, as generally required by clubs?

If so, that would mean I would need to establish the age of the rigging on anything I might buy, (which might not be possible), or take an early hit

(b) Roughly how big a hit would that be for something like, say, a Westerly Pageant?

(c) IIRC aluminium fatigues too. How often do the insurance companies require one to replace the mast?

(d) What about synthetics/carbon fibre? Or rod-rigging? Same-same? Perhaps no one knows fatigue life for this relatively novel stuff, but that wouldn't necessarily stop them specifying replacement for it.

(e) Similarly but opposite, how about galvanised wire standing rigging on a gaffer, which shouldn't fatigue or suffer invisible stress cracking?

(Last two are probably academic interest only. Not many gaffers on my local market)

All sounds a bit of a pain, and a good argument for an unstayed mast, perhaps a junk rig conversion, though thats a bigger job than I really want.

ISTM that this is effectively a new thread.

a. My 3rd party insurance never asked me about the age of my rigging, but I suspect there's something in there about the boat being seaworthy.

b. Don't know, but it costs nothing to ask a local rigger

c. AIUI, rigging loads cycle constantly, vibrating in the wind, while a mast is far more rigid, so hardly moves - if it does, you really need to check your standing rigging! (May not apply to serious racers, but that isn't how I'd describe a Pageant)

d. I don't know, but boats with that kind of kit tend to be well beyond my pay grade- or yours, I suspect.

e. Again, don't know, but I suspect that galvanised wire is more forgiving. I can't believe that all those sailing fishing boats changed their rigging every 10 years, but maybe that's one of the reasons it was such a dangerous life. OTOH, I believe (happy to be proved wrong) that gaff rigs tend to have lower stress levels, as well as being over-engineered.

An unstayed mast would need some serious redesign of the boat, including a new, beefier mast, then there's the cost of junk sails. It just isn't cost effective. Do it because you like the junk rig, not because you don't want to pay for new rigging. Better still, get a junk rigged boat to start with.

 

[Bilgediver]

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So you are saying Stalok are no use? I am sure Stalok would disagree. I have one longshaft Stalok in my rigging now. Does this mean that insurance is void if you use Staloks?

Nothing wrong with Stayloks. However it is a fact that the rigging often fails in the vicinity of a termination and this could be for a variety of reasons.

Another frequent point of failure is the top of the forestay where certain roller furling systems are fitted that do not suite the lay of the wire so the wire twists and baskets when trying to furl in strong winds.