Retro-fitting self tacking foresail??

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Pavalijo

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A friend came sailing with us recently and is keen to buy a yacht himself but has had a major operation and worries about the physical effort.

I suggested a furling main with electric winch and a self tacking jib - he watched me tacking in 18kts and would not be able to do that!

I have looked through YBW and Yachtworld and am struggling to find anything in the size/price range (32-36 feet, £80k) with furling main and self tacking jib.

Is retro-fitting a self tacking jib any more difficult than new sail, traveller and running rigging?? Anyone done it?

Or is there a better way to sail for someone with generally good health but weakened from an op (and 65 years of age)?

Phil thanks you in advance!

Regards
Paul
 
Our boat had a self-tacker added by the previous owner a couple of years ago. Nothing too complex about it, I think I have some paperwork somewhere that woudl tell me the make of the travk, traveller, etc. It's quite handy but has its limits. Ours has a flat track which can prevent the sail from tacking all the way, so you have to go forward and give it a kick. In medium wind ranges it doesn't hang up, but in very light or strong winds it does. I'm going to try introducing a curve into the track to avoid this issue.

For your friend, maybe a more out-of-the-box rig like a Junk might be useful?
 
Kelpie said:
Our boat had a self-tacker added by the previous owner a couple of years ago. Nothing too complex about it, I think I have some paperwork somewhere that woudl tell me the make of the travk, traveller, etc. It's quite handy but has its limits. Ours has a flat track which can prevent the sail from tacking all the way, so you have to go forward and give it a kick. In medium wind ranges it doesn't hang up, but in very light or strong winds it does. I'm going to try introducing a curve into the track to avoid this issue.

For your friend, maybe a more out-of-the-box rig like a Junk might be useful?
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Or a Freedom rig
 
Thanks for the replies - the freedom and junk rigs look interesting, but they are rare, and more so (hen's teeth?) on a modern production boat. Seems that fitting the self tacking jib may be the way to go - with a curved track!
 
dunedin said:
Buy a Hanse ? Don't most of them have one ?
Click to expand...

There are 3 Hanse 355's on Yachtworld right now all with self tacking jib but none with furling main. That seems like a good direction to look in - he'll just have to be patient or jump in and retrofit, especially if he doesn't like the Hanse style.
 
Many of the British Hunter boats (including mine) have self-tacking jibs; these seem to work quite well (and use a curved track). Though, I should add most of them will be below the size range you mention, and I don't know how well the concept scales up. You might like to ask Barton, who (I think) supplied the track.

As with most things, it's not as simple an issue as it seems. A self-tacking jib is not an unmixed blessing, for instance it's not possible to back the jib when heaving to, nor can you back the jib to force a reluctant boat to tack; and the jib is more prone to slam from side to side when running.

The Hunter boats mentioned all had fractional rigs with, of course, non-overlapping headsails; the area of the jib was thus less (compared to a masthead rig, much less) than would be expected with a conventional jib. I would say that the easier handling of the (or, at any rate, my) Hunter jib is as much, or more, due to the smaller size of the headsail than it is to the self-tacking mechanism. So it might appear that much of the easier handling of a self-tacking jib might be obtained by use of a smaller headsail without, necessarily, going to the complication and expense of a self-tacking mechanism. For instance, changing a genoa for a smaller non-overlapping sail or even a yankee. You would still need to winch in the jib sheet on tacking, but it would be a lot easier since the sail area is less; and you could do a proper heave-to.

For what it's worth.
 
I think that boats with self tacking jibs need to be mainsail driven, boats that are geneo driven would lose a lot of sail area by fitting a self tacking jib. A self tacker is normally about 95%, if you convert a boat with, say, a 120% genoa into a 95% jib, then that's quite a loss in sail area and performance. If I was going for a conversion I would look at boats that are designed with small headsails and large mains. Apart from that no problems.
 
blackbeard said:
So it might appear that much of the easier handling of a self-tacking jib might be obtained by use of a smaller headsail without, necessarily, going to the complication and expense of a self-tacking mechanism. For instance, changing a genoa for a smaller non-overlapping sail or even a yankee. You would still need to winch in the jib sheet on tacking, but it would be a lot easier since the sail area is less; and you could do a proper heave-to.

For what it's worth.
Click to expand...

That's helpful, thanks - there is the electric winch handle to consider also (must look for a thread on that). Another option then would be smaller boat with small headsail and an electric winch handle (which could also be used to furl the main).

This whole discussion is really helpful in considering how best to advise Phil.
 
I should also add, the change to a self-tacker is a bit of a compromise on our (masthead rigged) boat. I can't help thinking the boat would go much better under a moderately overlapping genoa as the designers intended :/
 
Pavalijo said:
I suggested motor boat but he feels that motoring would be boring compared to sailing (his exact words). I did say that smaller would be much easier to handle, hence suggesting that he might look at 32 feet.
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How about a cutter? Or something with two masts? Something which would significantly reduce sail sizes anyway. Perhaps a motorsailor so he doesn't have to handle sails in non-benign weather? I love my current boat, but have pencilled in a Fisher 34 ketch for my dotage.
 
Self tacking jibs can be in 2 styles. On cutters they often have a jib ona boom which makes it self tacking. This can work out really well especially if there is not a bow rail so the boom can swing out at rightangles for running. Like a mainsail boom there is the problem of keeping the tension down on the boom. There would not normally be room for a vang unlessnyou fashioned something on the forestay to push the boom down or if you have additioanl sheets set on either side to pull the boom down but so making it non self tacking but backable. As with a mainsail a boom can make a jib set really well on all popints of sail. But the boom can be deadly to anyone on the foredeck.
The alternative is the loose footed tackle from the clew of the jib down to a traveller ona track. This should ideally be curved to keep tension the same on both tacks and in traverse. it can set really well when beating but will be a bad shape for reaching or running. The tackle and track mean that the clew must be even further forward of the mast so reducing jib area even more.
I would suggest that a smaller <22ft fractional reig might be more suitable to your friend. While I use on my 21fter hanked on jibs i find that I can under all conditions (given the correct jib) sheet the jib in without use of winch handle or if racing with just a touch of handle. a light boat to sail but good performance in my case taking more effort to get up on the gunwhale to ballance the boat than actual sail handling. I am getting old too. olewill
 
Pavalijo said:
A friend came sailing with us recently and is keen to buy a yacht himself but has had a major operation and worries about the physical effort.

I suggested a furling main with electric winch and a self tacking jib - he watched me tacking in 18kts and would not be able to do that!

I have looked through YBW and Yachtworld and am struggling to find anything in the size/price range (32-36 feet, £80k) with furling main and self tacking jib.

Is retro-fitting a self tacking jib any more difficult than new sail, traveller and running rigging?? Anyone done it?

Or is there a better way to sail for someone with generally good health but weakened from an op (and 65 years of age)?

Phil thanks you in advance!

Regards
Paul
Click to expand...

We have a Benetau First 38 (1984) masthead rigged that came with 135% genoa when we bought her in 2006.
In 2010 we converted to a selftacking head sail, and we have not regretted this conversion.
We installed a curved track from Rutgerson http://www.rutgerson.se/default.asp?id=10&ShowGroup=70&DisplaySubs=1&ChildTo=
I seem to remember that Selden recently came with a similar kit.
http://www.seldenmast.com/en/products/tracks_and_travellers/self_tacking_systems/__lang_en.html
Seems to be a well engineered kit, we have what Selden call a "Up the mast" sheet arrangement, initially we had "over the fore deck" setup but the deck layout was not suited for this.

The furling sail has got one standing batten so it's close to 100% (i could ask my sailmaker to give me exact numbers..)

I can post some pics.
 
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I have just been out on a Parker with a self tacking jib. It uses a curved track and the Sheet runs up inside the mast then down from just below the spreaders to the traveller. This removes the geometry problems associated with adjusting a sheet attached to a traveller but for reaching and running it needs additional conventional sheets attached (and loosen the self tacking sheet) which is easy to do as the self tracker cannot set the jib properly for wind behind the beam. The self tracker also sets the jib much closer to the centreline than a conventional sheet can thus improving into wind performance.

I do not find the lack of sail area a problem except in very light winds when a genoa would help but unless you were racing it's hardly an issue. I think most genoas are far bigger than is needed and we've forgotten that a smaller jib is perfectly adequate 95% of the time.
 
knuterikt said:
We have a Benetau First 38 (1984) masthead rigged that came with 135% genoa when we bought her in 2006.
In 2010 we converted to a selftacking head sail, and we have not regretted this conversion.
We installed a curved track from Rutgerson http://www.rutgerson.se/default.asp?id=10&ShowGroup=70&DisplaySubs=1&ChildTo=
I seem to remember that Selden recently came with a similar kit.
http://www.seldenmast.com/en/products/tracks_and_travellers/self_tacking_systems/__lang_en.html
Seems to be a well engineered kit, we have what Selden call a "Up the mast" sheet arrangement, initially we had "over the fore deck" setup but the deck layout was not suited for this.

The furling sail has got one standing batten so it's close to 100% (i could ask my sailmaker to give me exact numbers..)

I can post some pics.
Click to expand...

How do you deal with reaching and running as MASH describes - do you need the additional conventional sheets? The systems you linked to are both based on straight tracks - do you ever have to kick the jib across as described earlier (where it was suggested that a curved track would resolve that issue)?

It seems that fitting self tacking is perfectly feasible but there will be compromises. Thanks again to all who have contributed
 
Pavalijo said:
How do you deal with reaching and running as MASH describes - do you need the additional conventional sheets?
Click to expand...
We have rigged barber haulers that we use for the following tasks
- When sailing against the wind they are use to close the angle of the sail (adjusted once and not adjusted any more while taking
- For beam reach and running we can move sheeting point towards the rail. Give better sail shape and stops the "auto gybing"
Have also good experience with extra sheets permanently rigged, loose when tacking used when downwind.

Pavalijo said:
The systems you linked to are both based on straight tracks - do you ever have to kick the jib across as described earlier (where it was suggested that a curved track would resolve that issue)?
Click to expand...
The Rutgerson we installed is curved - I think a straight track is a bad idea.
The Selden is also curved
From http://www.seldenmast.com/en/products/tracks_and_travellers/self_tacking_systems/__lang_en.html
Seldén provide customized curved tracks
in sizes 22, 30 and 42 mm on request.
An enquiry form, 595-952-E, is available at
http://www.seldenmast.com.
Click to expand...
Pavalijo said:
It seems that fitting self tacking is perfectly feasible but there will be compromises. Thanks again to all who have contributed
Click to expand...

After having sailed with our selftacking sail for some years I think the downside have less weight than the upside.

Some pictures

Track with barberhaulers (red/green), picture taken before we changed to up the mast sheeting

Curved Rutgerson track
IMAG0050.jpg


Sail with the standing batten (sail can be roller reefed)
IMAG0064.jpg


Not far from 100%
DSC09530.jpg
 
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