Retrieving to a trailer - is this a bad idea?

[MarcJ]

Having recovered the yacht for the 3rd time on Monday, I'm trying to streamline the process. In fact Bank Holiday Monday on Pwllheli public slipway wasn't a very relaxing experience! . I waited an hour for a gap between the jet ski's and other boats launching and recovering..then held up a long line for an hour whilst I fiddled with ropes etc. So I need a winch, which I'll be getting in the next few weeks.
I've been tying the bow to the trailer once the boat is lined up front to back, and then guiding the keels into place. Then pulling the lot gingerly forward half a foot hoping the keels "sink" into the runners.
I'm tempted to connect the tow rope (in the future it would be the winch cable) to the bow roller and feed it underneath the front of the trailer frame - the plan being it would hold the bow down and drag the whole lot forward. Using a winch I could control this whilst keeping an eye on the keels etc. If that's not a bad idea I can put a roller on the trailer frame so the wire isn't dragging across the angle iron...
The red line on the pic shows, I hope, what I'm on about!

 

[VicS]

Id not think you need a winch.

Good docking arms essential though. Also a better bow post that will position it and stop it coming to far forward. You do have to remember to allow for the angle of the slipway when positioning the bow support though .. really needs to be adjustable..

Those guides for the keels look like a PITA unless the water is clear and smooth.


immersing a road trailer in seawater is bad bad news for brakes and bearings. Illegal in some counties i believe.

 

[MarcJ]

Yes I agree with all of that Vic! Plan on getting docking arms sorted. A better bow post would be great, but probably beyond my DIY skills, and I haven't got any cash to chuck at it.
The guides are a pain, they do sort of work - there's a detachable "lip" at the back which I suppose, if removed, might help recovery, but the boat is usually floating above that any way.
No brakes on the trailer, I'm kneeling down praying about the bearings! Well no, I'll either service them myself or get a mate to look at them, soon...
The winch is not 100% necessary, I'm more or less recovering the boat on my own (not withstanding my lovely capt standing around giving advice and pushing/pulling in opposite order to my requests! ) so I think it would be a great help.

 

[VicS]

you are thinking of a winch on the towing vehicle ??

Strip, clean and re grease the bearings after every immersion before you tow away from the launching area

When arriving allow the bearings to cool before dunking.

 

[MarcJ]

Yes a winch on the back of my van, probably 12V one that hangs off the tow bar, as I don't particularly want one fixed permanently as there's not much ground clearance.
"Strip, clean and re grease the bearings after every immersion before you tow away from the launching area" - this, I know, is best practice, the first time retrieved from salt water I hosed the trailer down, on Monday the trailer wheels got a bucket of fresh water chucked over them before a 3 hour drive. Time constraints unfortunately.
I haven't looked into how much work is involved in stripping the bearings - I guess you've got to take the wheels off?
The long term plan isn't to do trailer-sailing, although it's going to be the reality until next year at least.

 

[William_H]

Well firstly your rope and winch idea will not work well. The boat will pitch from bow up to bow down relative to the trailer at an angle equal to the angle of the ramp.
To explain you start off with the boat level floating as the weight comes onto the trailer the boat takes up the angle of the trailer which is stern down.
This pitching makes a bow post a real problem. Unless it is well forward and clear of the bow.
IMHO the best bet is to raise the cage that the keel sits in to up near the hull. This gives you an easier target to get the boat in place while floating often way above the trailer. Your cage is OK but too low. High (well above the gunwhale at the stern) side guides will also help.
Yes the boat will need to be tethered to the trailer as you pull it out. The best bet is ropes from the stern cleats to the trailer hitch. This gives a pull forward regardless of hull angle to the trailer.

I have just noticed it has twin keels. All my experience has been with fin Keels. Just the same I think. You need a cage that contains both keels in the right place over the chanels that the keels sit in with a front to the cage to stop it going too far forward. Be aware that often when the keel rests against the front bar of the cage in the water the boat will settle further aft. Which is OK provided you allow for the boat in this position regarding fore and aft balance. You should end up with about 100kgs down lopad on the tow bar. ie too heavy to lift.(for us weaklings)
You should learn to manage the bearings. Assuming they are twin tapered bearings from a car. You simply jack the trailer. Take off the grease cap. A screw driver in the gap behind the cap will prize it off. Remove the split pin on the big nut and the nut. Pull the wheel and bearing off as one. Remove water and regrease as necessary. Refit the hub and inner bearing then fit the outer bearing a washer and the big nut. Tighten the nut up failrly tight then back off about 1/8 of a turn. Ensure the wheel spins freelybut does not havee any play when you shove the tire. Once you get used to it you can take longer to jack the trailer than service the bearings. Depending on the distance you tow if it is short you can keep fairly manky bearings running for a long time. Provided you keep greasing them. ie service straight after (within 12hrs) any imersion.
I have been doing this for 32 years now. I believe in NZ they launch the boat with the trailer attached and leave the trailer attached to a mooring some distance out. On recovery the trailer is attached under the trailer in deep water then the boat is powered up the beach as if the boat had wheels. No problems dunking or leaving the trailer in the water all day in that case good luck. olewill

 

[MarcJ]

Thanks Olewill, much food for thought! I understand the idea won't work if there is any significant swell, tbh I don't think I'd be attempting a recovery if there was.
The trailer would definitely be improved with better/higher guides for the keels - and thanks for your info on sorting the bearings.
The 100kg nose weight - hmmm the boat is "stern heavy" as I pulled it out of the water up the slip it did a pretty good wheely, though that was the slipway angle. On flat ground it "feels" about 30-40kg.

 

[VicS]

Yes a winch on the back of my van, probably 12V one that hangs off the tow bar, as I don't particularly want one fixed permanently as there's not much ground clearance.
"Strip, clean and re grease the bearings after every immersion before you tow away from the launching area" - this, I know, is best practice, the first time retrieved from salt water I hosed the trailer down, on Monday the trailer wheels got a bucket of fresh water chucked over them before a 3 hour drive. Time constraints unfortunately.
I haven't looked into how much work is involved in stripping the bearings - I guess you've got to take the wheels off?
The long term plan isn't to do trailer-sailing, although it's going to be the reality until next year at least.

They look like standard trailer wheels so almost certainly standard trailer hubs with tapered roller bearings. Easy then to clean out and re-grease as William indicates. I'd take the wheel off and then remove the hub but William's idea of removing hub and wheel together saves unbolting the wheels and bolting them back on.

My trailer has old Mini rear hubs and wheels c/w brakes. The bearings are angular contact ball races so have to be drifted out for cleaning ( next time I replace them it'll be with Mini Cooper roller bearings)

I also have four wheels so a lot of work after a dunking which is one reason why I don't normally dunk it.

 

[Giblets]

You say that the trailer has no brakes! I would have thought that the combined weight of your boat and trailer is above the legal limit for an un-braked trailer of 750 kg!

 

[aquaplane]

You really need guide bars, it's not worth strugling without them.

You also need a winch on the trailer, on a post, to a U bolt through the stem somewhere above the waterline.



Even using a winch on the boat over the bow roller down to a turning block on the trailer and back to a U bolt on the stem would keep the boat and trailer attached when you start to pull the trailer out. Seperate lines to the boat and trailer doesn't work, either the boat or the trailer always moves first/faster and all you carefull lining up goes pear shaped.

 

[davidpbo]

Pwhelli is rubbish for launching for us. We went there last year. I would not use the Harbour master slip.

The marina slip did not allow you to launch yourself, you have to use a contractor, we only found one that would, the rest would not get their tractor wheels wet and would not use the properly rated and vgc bought for purpose strop we use.

Launching was ok recovery very difficult eventually achieved with the assistance of a fellow trailer sailor association member who was walking by (I might have asked him to).

Most slipways in this country are rubbish for launching boats that have to be floated on and off the trailer, craning on and off is exorbitant. I read in PBO on the Baltic it costs about £40 to crane a large boat off trailer. A lot for day sailing but if your boat is trailerable rather than a trailer sailer I.e. You take it somewhere for a week or so that is not too bad.

Docking arms essential for retrieving on an open slip.

If you are new to trailer sailing with that type of trailer try Windermere, much better slip with jetties alongside, tractor launch and may lift available at a price.

Largs marina and Loch Lomond have good slips, just places we have been that we could launch and retreive at without drama because they had an alongside jetty that allowed us to align the boat on the trailer and keep it aligned as we pulled out. We don't have docking arms at the moment.

To keep the boat forward on the trailer as it comes out I use a long rope to the bow from the tow hitch. Given that I am using a 10m strop onto the trailer to get it in deep enough, I tighten the bow rope such that the bow is touching the v on the trailer post. The rope stretches enough to allow the change in angle as the boat comes into the trailer.

I keep meaning to write to Pwhelli regarding their launch facilities. Maybe the new facilities being built might have a better slip. One narrow steep exposed public slip is not enough. They could do so much with that inner basin and water front area but it would need serious dredging.

Bet you were popular with the mobos waiting to get off.

 

[TSB240]

Pwhelli is rubbish for launching for us. We went there last year. I would not use the Harbour master slip.

The marina slip did not allow you to launch yourself, you have to use a contractor, we only found one that would, the rest would not get their tractor wheels wet and would not use the properly rated and vgc bought for purpose strop we use.

Launching was ok recovery very difficult eventually achieved with the assistance of a fellow trailer sailor association member who was walking by (I might have asked him to).

Most slipways in this country are rubbish for launching boats that have to be floated on and off the trailer, craning on and off is exorbitant. I read in PBO on the Baltic it costs about £40 to crane a large boat off trailer. A lot for day sailing but if your boat is trailerable rather than a trailer sailer I.e. You take it somewhere for a week or so that is not too bad.

Docking arms essential for retrieving on an open slip.

If you are new to trailer sailing with that type of trailer try Windermere, much better slip with jetties alongside, tractor launch and may lift available at a price.

Largs marina and Loch Lomond have good slips, just places we have been that we could launch and retreive at without drama because they had an alongside jetty that allowed us to align the boat on the trailer and keep it aligned as we pulled out. We don't have docking arms at the moment.

To keep the boat forward on the trailer as it comes out I use a long rope to the bow from the tow hitch. Given that I am using a 10m strop onto the trailer to get it in deep enough, I tighten the bow rope such that the bow is touching the v on the trailer post. The rope stretches enough to allow the change in angle as the boat comes into the trailer.

I keep meaning to write to Pwhelli regarding their launch facilities. Maybe the new facilities being built might have a better slip. One narrow steep exposed public slip is not enough. They could do so much with that inner basin and water front area but it would need serious dredging.

Bet you were popular with the mobos waiting to get off.

That slip is a nightmare too narrow too busy too steep....and its in Pwllheli!

The best slip in North Wales for Trailer Sailers is at Dinas Boat Yard Y Felinheli. It is not Public but it has a gentle slope, very sheltered and protected from cross winds, can handle three boats side by side so no queues.You can either self launch or Graham will help you.

Nothing wrong with your Trailer.

We dont have a winch on ours either. We do have a removable bow support for steep slipways and shaped bunks which guide our boat without need for side guides.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79352891/Trailer/BILD1084.JPG

She is a bit bigger and heavier than yours!

 

[Fantasie 19]

You really need guide bars, it's not worth strugling without them.

You also need a winch on the trailer, on a post, to a U bolt through the stem somewhere above the waterline.

+1

I had the same issues with my old boat and was constantly thinking of fitting both... and never getting round to it...

 

[Croak]

I used to:-

push trailer out so it was under the boat.

Tie a known length piece of rope from the bow to the towbar,

Attach a long line on the towbar and attach it to the car.

Push boat and trailer out as far as I could.

Get in car and drive forward at about 5mph.

The car would tow the boat and the trailer forward in a straight line behind the car so it would always sit directly on the trailer. I would then tow the trailer up the slip and do any adjustments with one of those 12v winches you are talking about.

The stay dry version is to beach the boat on the slip, wait for the tide to go out then winch the boat onto the trailer using some metal channel as ramps.

The 12 winch has been v useful.

I agree the trailer and boat looks over 750kg if it is it would be illegal on the road without brakes.

Mine was a Leisure 17

 

[TSB240]

Having recovered the yacht for the 3rd time on Monday, I'm trying to streamline the process. In fact Bank Holiday Monday on Pwllheli public slipway wasn't a very relaxing experience! . I waited an hour for a gap between the jet ski's and other boats launching and recovering..then held up a long line for an hour whilst I fiddled with ropes etc. So I need a winch, which I'll be getting in the next few weeks.
I've been tying the bow to the trailer once the boat is lined up front to back, and then guiding the keels into place. Then pulling the lot gingerly forward half a foot hoping the keels "sink" into the runners.
I'm tempted to connect the tow rope (in the future it would be the winch cable) to the bow roller and feed it underneath the front of the trailer frame - the plan being it would hold the bow down and drag the whole lot forward. Using a winch I could control this whilst keeping an eye on the keels etc. If that's not a bad idea I can put a roller on the trailer frame so the wire isn't dragging across the angle iron...
The red line on the pic shows, I hope, what I'm on about!

Your trailer design like mine has no effective roller supports. This means a winch is impractical and useless for repositioning the boat once it is supported by the trailer.
It depends like mine on the keel making contact with a stop in front of the keel or keels in your case for accurate positioning fore and aft.

We simply tie two equal length non stretchy lines with spliced loops at each end. Attach a purchase(I use our simple two to one off the back stay adjuster) to the bow support base and clip on each of the two lines which are lead back to the stern cleats keeping plenty of tension on them once the keel is up against the stop.

Cheaper than a winch on a bow post and means that the bow post can be removed on a steep slip.

A fixed bow support and winch is impossible to use on a steep slipway with your or our trailer design as it will not allow the boat far enough forward on the trailer to get the keel snug against the stop. Every time you go to pull out the boat will end up a couple of inches further back and the trailer will be back end heavy.

 

[Croak]

This means a winch is impractical and useless for repositioning the boat once it is supported by the trailer.

I don't understand this comment.

I have used a winch to alter the position of a bilge keeled boat on a non roller trailer. In fact I have used the winch to take the boat on and off the trailer on dry land.

 

[Avocet]

Just to add to the already overwhelming opinion, Docking poles either side are the way to go. We trailed and sailed a bilge keeled Leisure 17 and a lift-keeled Evolution 22 and in both cases, a pole either side of the boat and one at the bow were the way to go - absolutely transformed the recovery process - especially if there was any wind or tide across the slipway.

Also, yes, looks like it's illegal without brakes - I can't believe that boat and trailer are under 750kg (and some cars can't even legally tow 750kg without brakes anyway).

With wheelbearings, I tended to ignore them and treat them as service items each season. They're amazingly cheap now, if you go for Chinese "no-name" ones. I used to carry a replacement set of bearings with me in the car, and the tools to change them at the side of the road if necessary. Later, I picked up a couple of hubs because pressing the outer races into the hubs was the hardest part. I just used to keep the two hubs, (with new races already pressed-in) in the back of the tow car.

 

[MarcJ]

Just to add to the already overwhelming opinion, Docking poles either side are the way to go. We trailed and sailed a bilge keeled Leisure 17 and a lift-keeled Evolution 22 and in both cases, a pole either side of the boat and one at the bow were the way to go - absolutely transformed the recovery process - especially if there was any wind or tide across the slipway.

Also, yes, looks like it's illegal without brakes - I can't believe that boat and trailer are under 750kg (and some cars can't even legally tow 750kg without brakes anyway).

With wheelbearings, I tended to ignore them and treat them as service items each season. They're amazingly cheap now, if you go for Chinese "no-name" ones. I used to carry a replacement set of bearings with me in the car, and the tools to change them at the side of the road if necessary. Later, I picked up a couple of hubs because pressing the outer races into the hubs was the hardest part. I just used to keep the two hubs, (with new races already pressed-in) in the back of the tow car.

Nicely summed up there Avocet! Thanks for all the other comments too! I'm going to get some "proper" welded docking poles sorted out, which I'm sure will make all the difference.
As for the trailer being illegal - I looked into this before. I've just trawled back through some of advice sites..
Firstly on the Government site it says the TRAILER can be upto 750kgs unbraked https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/towing-equipment-safety-standards Which I take to mean just the trailer, not trailer and boat.
Secondly as far as I can tell I'm allowed to tow an unbraked trailer up to half the gross weight of the towing vehicle. The towing vehicle is a long wheel base, high top Merc Sprinter gross weight somewhere around 2 tons. Trailer + boat should be less than a ton.

 

[Giblets]

Nicely summed up there Avocet! Thanks for all the other comments too! I'm going to get some "proper" welded docking poles sorted out, which I'm sure will make all the difference.
As for the trailer being illegal - I looked into this before. I've just trawled back through some of advice sites..
Firstly on the Government site it says the TRAILER can be upto 750kgs unbraked https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/towing-equipment-safety-standards Which I take to mean just the trailer, not trailer and boat.
Secondly as far as I can tell I'm allowed to tow an unbraked trailer up to half the gross weight of the towing vehicle. The towing vehicle is a long wheel base, high top Merc Sprinter gross weight somewhere around 2 tons. Trailer + boat should be less than a ton.

Sorry, MarcJ, your assumptions are wrong. The total gross weight of trailer and load for an unbraked trailer is 750kg. End of story.

The "half gross weight of the towing vehicle" relates to braked trailers.

 

[Croak]

Nicely summed up there Avocet! Thanks for all the other comments too! I'm going to get some "proper" welded docking poles sorted out, which I'm sure will make all the difference.
As for the trailer being illegal - I looked into this before. I've just trawled back through some of advice sites..
Firstly on the Government site it says the TRAILER can be upto 750kgs unbraked https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/towing-equipment-safety-standards Which I take to mean just the trailer, not trailer and boat.
Secondly as far as I can tell I'm allowed to tow an unbraked trailer up to half the gross weight of the towing vehicle. The towing vehicle is a long wheel base, high top Merc Sprinter gross weight somewhere around 2 tons. Trailer + boat should be less than a ton.

I'm afraid you are wrong, it is the boat and the trailer.