Resources to help me sail better ....

[Baggywrinkle]

I replaced my set of knackered sails with new ones and an asymetric, the boat is transformed, but I want to get the most out of my new sails ..... OK, the sails are in-mast furling with furling genny too and the boat is a fractional rigged Bav36 of 1999 vintage with all the usual sail controls including an adjustable backstay which I have never touched. I've noticed that since the switch, weather helm is much reduced, but I still get it sometimes. Occasionally, (more by accident than design) she creams along at 7-8 knots with a feather light helm .... I'd like to do this more often so can anyone suggest some sail trimming resources either in print or online where I can get a better understanding and learn how to sail better. I'm not in the slightest bit interested in regattas or racing otherwise I guess racing on other peoples boats would be the way to learn more.

Suggestions please.

 

[Judders]

I hate to give credit to them but North's North U guides are a good investment. Sounds like the trim one is the one which you require.

 

[Foolish Muse]

It sounds like you have gotten to the point where books (like the excellent North U books mentioned above) are not going to help. They are good for beginners who are trying to get the very basics of sail trim. But they are not specific to any one boat, so won't help you get that last 2 - 10ths of a knot that you are looking for. So you have the choice of hiring a coach.

But my best advice is to learn to sail by the knot meter, not by the telltails on your sail. What I do is to watch my knot meter for spikes in speed; then I try to keep the boat at that speed. So for example if I'm sailing along at 6.2; then I see a little spike to 6.3 or 6.4. What I do is try to get back up to that spike level and keep it there. Make tiny adjustments to sail trim or heading. Try everything from the sheets to the cars to the outhaul to the backstay. If your speed goes up, then you are on the right track. If your speed goes down, then try something else.

The books will give you an understanding of what to look for, but only tweaking the trim on your own boat will get that last bit of speed that you want. Keep your eyes glued to the knot meter until you've got it figured out.

 

[Quandary]

Doing it all by trial and error is going to take a very long time there are so many combinations of trim and then of wind and sea conditions. The OP has never adjusted his backstay and has bought a roll away mainsail so he still has a quite a long way to go and so many combinations of adjustment to try. So to shorten the process considerably a good understanding of how to change sail shape and why to do it is going to make the whole learning process more interesting. Books are one way but going racing with an expert is even better. I used to persuade any helm or trimmer that I though was better than me to come out and race my boat and if I was ordering sails I had the sailmaker aboard for a club race before and after. John McWilliam had an aeronautics degree and was a jet pilot before he started cutting sails and was happy to patiently explain very technical stuff for his customers, more recently so would Chis Owen. Most real sailmakers like to go sailing.
The other benefit of knowing why things have an effect is that it makes the whole process of sailing a boat so much more interesting and enjoyable.

 

[mrming]

Agreed - the trial and error method is not good as you won't necessarily know why things are happening. Read the North U book. Sail trim is actually quite simple once you get it, and the knowledge will be transferable to any similarly rigged boat. Fractional rigs are very satisfying as they're so tweakable.

 

[flaming]

It sounds like you have gotten to the point where books (like the excellent North U books mentioned above) are not going to help. They are good for beginners who are trying to get the very basics of sail trim.

That must make me a beginner then... Such a great reference guide those books!

The one thing I would be cautious of though is the combination of fractional rig and roller furling main. The normal role of an adjustable backstay on a fractional rig is to bend the mast, but I understand (and here anyone with more recent experience feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!) that in mast furling requires a ramrod straight mast, so I'm not really sure what the adjustable backstay is achieveing on such a rig. Possibly a bit of forestay tensioning, but I'd be nervous of winding it on in case it prevented furling etc...

 

[Woodlouse]

It sounds like you have gotten to the point where books (like the excellent North U books mentioned above) are not going to help. They are good for beginners who are trying to get the very basics of sail trim.

Afraid I also have to disagree with this statement. I always seem to learn something new from picking up the North U books despite having sailed all my life. I've also sailed on some pretty serious race boats where a fair amount of the crew would benefit from doing the same. If the OP is still wondering what things such as his adjustable back stay might be for then I'd suggest he could still benefit a great deal from books.

 

[Foolish Muse]

Afraid I also have to disagree with this statement

I certainly do not want to disparage the excellent sail trim books, like the North U books. They are certainly an excellent starting point and I have learned very much from them. But I've found that after reading them through very carefully, I am still left with a lot of trial and error. For example, on page 50 with regard to headstay sag it reads "More sag adds depth and power; for extra speed in waves and better acceleration." But what it doesn't give me is any real example that I can use.

***YES I UNDERSTAND THAT EVERY BOAT IS DIFFERENT AND ANY EXAMPLE THEY GIVE WILL NOT WORK ON MY BOAT.***

But, if they told me that on their 35' boat and sailing in a 3' chop, they sag the headstay until it had a depth of 15", then I could work with that as a starting point for my boat. As it is, I am left with trial and error of easing the headstay to a multiple of depths and attempting, in choppy waters where it is darned near impossible to accurately measure boat speed, to figure out what works best.

This is the point of my post a few days ago. After reading the great books, we are still left with trial and error. A lot of trail and error.

 

[Woodlouse]

I certainly do not want to disparage the excellent sail trim books, like the North U books. They are certainly an excellent starting point and I have learned very much from them. But I've found that after reading them through very carefully, I am still left with a lot of trial and error. For example, on page 50 with regard to headstay sag it reads "More sag adds depth and power; for extra speed in waves and better acceleration." But what it doesn't give me is any real example that I can use.

***YES I UNDERSTAND THAT EVERY BOAT IS DIFFERENT AND ANY EXAMPLE THEY GIVE WILL NOT WORK ON MY BOAT.***

But, if they told me that on their 35' boat and sailing in a 3' chop, they sag the headstay until it had a depth of 15", then I could work with that as a starting point for my boat. As it is, I am left with trial and error of easing the headstay to a multiple of depths and attempting, in choppy waters where it is darned near impossible to accurately measure boat speed, to figure out what works best.

This is the point of my post a few days ago. After reading the great books, we are still left with trial and error. A lot of trail and error.

Unfortunatly the trial and error never goes away. There's a reason Americas cup teams spend all day going backwards and forwards on the water, they don't really need to practice their sailing, they're trying new things, crunching numbers and collecting data to find out just what effect each and every tweak has. It would be impossible for them to give examples and numbers for everyone for every scenario, instead they point you in the right direction and if you have the drive and enthusiasm you can try things out and find what works best.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Thanks for the replies, I think I'll get myself a copy of the North U books and start tweaking - these forums are a great source of advice and opinion.

How well it will all work with a roller reefing main, only time will tell. Unfortunately racing isn't really an option as the boat is in the med and I'm in central europe so due to limited holidays the time on the boat is precious and I tend to spend it with family and friends. The new sails have certainly given the boat a new lease of life, feels much more alive than with the previous set and and it's fantastic when I get it "in the groove" by accident and it seems to just buzz along with a feather light helm.

 

[flaming]

This is the point of my post a few days ago. After reading the great books, we are still left with trial and error. A lot of trail and error.

Of course you are! That's 90% of the point of sailing... If you don't want to do trial and error, go buy a popular one design where North etc publish tuning guides. I did a couple of day's racing on a J111 recently, and the tuning guide North publish for that boat was great. Very specific in rig tensions etc.. BUT.... It still doesn't get you that last little bit, and that's where the good sailors get left behind by the great sailors.

Also worth mentioning that the tuning guide for the J111 published by another sail loft (Quantum I think) has wildly different numbers. But those boats are still fast. So more than one way to make a boat go fast, especially once you factor in sails designed to different philosophies by different lofts.

 

[Birdseye]

Its an interesting question you pose, but before I give my reply I should say that I most definitely am not a hot shot successful racer. But by inclination I am analytical and as race officer I can often see more of the game than those on board do. And the bit that I do see a lot is the difference between those who do win and those who never quite get there.
The answer is care and concentration. I see a lot of boats losing ground because of a careless inattentive tack - concentration is good at the start but fades after an hour or more. I see lots of boats losing ground because of fumbled spinny / gennaker works - as Flaming says, practice is the key. I see lots of boats losing seconds and occasionally more at the start. And boats failing to react to wind shifts. Only rarely is there an obvious difference in speed through the water from similar boats - sure decent sails and trim matter but they are easier to achieve than a well organised well practiced crew with eyes on the ball. After all, decent sails are only a matter of money. Concentration is more difficult which is why when cruising my boat goes better under autopilot than with me helming!

There are lots of books about sail trimming. One tip is worthwhile - get yourself a notebook and note down data. Wind strength, sheet car positions, speed, wheel / tiller angle etc. Then experiment.