snowleopard
Well-Known Member
I'm amazed! A thread criticising the RNLI achieves 12 replies before the self-appointed forum police dive it to tell us we're not allowed to say anything negative about them.
Rescued,like it or not.
- Thread starter graham
- Start date
C
Chrusty1
Guest
Who said that?........I think maybe there is more to all this than we know about. It seems to me that the RNLI is a charity, run and manned by volunteers for the most part, and a civilian organisation to boot, so, why do they have to obey CG "orders"?........The RNLI Coxswain is the man on the ground, surely it is up to him to assess the situation and advise / act accordingly..........If an RNLI Coxswain were to tell the CG, to go and swing their lead, what they going to do, arrest him, sack him??
cliffordpope
Well-Known Member
I know someone whose boat was badly damaged by the RNLI. They had not been called out, but insisted on coming in close to investigate. They were warned to keep away as no help was requested or needed.
tillergirl
Well-Known Member
Re: Rescued,like it or not. - Reed the article
Can you guide us to the relevant article please?
Can you guide us to the relevant article please?
graham
Well-Known Member
Re: Rescued,like it or not. - Reed the article
This is most definitely not an "Urban Myth".
Cmdr Collis was never likely to cause any pollution and wasnt in distress. He most definitely was towed into Harwich against his will under protest.
The RNLI are given their instructions by the Coastguard .I am not criticising the Coxswain at all.
I thin k Cmdr Collis may have done us all a great service in bringing this situation to light,knowing what I know now in a similar situation I would have it logged that I was not a pollution problem or in distress and therefore any attempt to interfere with my vessell would be illegal.
i would resist any attempt to be boarded but would not assault anyone in the process, the boarding party would have to physically restrain me to prevent the tow being cast off or cut.
Once ashore I would create a storm of protest to the relevant authorities .
Lets hope that some lessons have been learned here and this travesty doesnt occur to anyone else.
This is most definitely not an "Urban Myth".
Cmdr Collis was never likely to cause any pollution and wasnt in distress. He most definitely was towed into Harwich against his will under protest.
The RNLI are given their instructions by the Coastguard .I am not criticising the Coxswain at all.
I thin k Cmdr Collis may have done us all a great service in bringing this situation to light,knowing what I know now in a similar situation I would have it logged that I was not a pollution problem or in distress and therefore any attempt to interfere with my vessell would be illegal.
i would resist any attempt to be boarded but would not assault anyone in the process, the boarding party would have to physically restrain me to prevent the tow being cast off or cut.
Once ashore I would create a storm of protest to the relevant authorities .
Lets hope that some lessons have been learned here and this travesty doesnt occur to anyone else.
ccscott49
Well-Known Member
Re: Rescued,like it or not. - Reed the article
Are CG "managers" a bit like NHS "managers" and wouldnt know their arse from a hole in the ground?
Are CG "managers" a bit like NHS "managers" and wouldnt know their arse from a hole in the ground?
longjohnsilver
Well-Known Member
Re: Rescued,like it or not. - Reed the article
Oh dear this is getting confusing.
The way I read the post is that the pollution problem was with the boat off Padstow, not the Cdr Collis boat.
I would be interested to read the full story about both incidents. There's no doubt a lot we don't know.
Oh dear this is getting confusing.
The way I read the post is that the pollution problem was with the boat off Padstow, not the Cdr Collis boat.
I would be interested to read the full story about both incidents. There's no doubt a lot we don't know.
graham
Well-Known Member
Re: Rescued,like it or not. - Reed the article
There wasnt a pollution threat in either incident and neither vessel was in distress .Neither of the skippers had asked for assistance.
There wasnt a pollution threat in either incident and neither vessel was in distress .Neither of the skippers had asked for assistance.
Seagreen
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I am quite disturbed that the RNLI are being used as some sort of Enforcement Agency of HM Govt......
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. Since when did a volunteer charity become the police and enforcement arm of the Government?
Are the RNLI now obliged to follow the orders of the MCA, despite the decision being remotely taken by a deskbound (and probably inexperienced) MCA officer? Will the MCA defer to an on-the-spot assessment of the situation by the RNLI Coxwain in future?
If the organisation remains rule-bound like this, and such incidents repeat, people will stop using the CG for passage safety, and that will lead to some genuine tragedies. People may also cease to donate to the RNLI, with the same result.
I am quite disturbed that the RNLI are being used as some sort of Enforcement Agency of HM Govt......
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. Since when did a volunteer charity become the police and enforcement arm of the Government?
Are the RNLI now obliged to follow the orders of the MCA, despite the decision being remotely taken by a deskbound (and probably inexperienced) MCA officer? Will the MCA defer to an on-the-spot assessment of the situation by the RNLI Coxwain in future?
If the organisation remains rule-bound like this, and such incidents repeat, people will stop using the CG for passage safety, and that will lead to some genuine tragedies. People may also cease to donate to the RNLI, with the same result.
awol
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I am quite disturbed that the RNLI are being used as some sort of Enforcement Agency of HM Govt......
[/ QUOTE ]
But I seem to remember the hooha a year or so ago when Dr Ladyman raised the evil spectre of drink/sailing legislation enactment. Weren't the RNLI to be co-opted, along with harbourmasters and marina staff, to identify and detain posible transgressors until Mr Plod arrived with his breathalyser?
I am quite disturbed that the RNLI are being used as some sort of Enforcement Agency of HM Govt......
[/ QUOTE ]
But I seem to remember the hooha a year or so ago when Dr Ladyman raised the evil spectre of drink/sailing legislation enactment. Weren't the RNLI to be co-opted, along with harbourmasters and marina staff, to identify and detain posible transgressors until Mr Plod arrived with his breathalyser?
Seagreen
Well-Known Member
Ah yes. Mr Ladyman...
Having seen the 'over-ambitious-yet-under-talented' policy officer type up close in Devon County Council, I suspect that Mr Ladyman was one and the same. Sadly the Political machine is far too full of these idea-mongers, whose main purpose seems to be to generate ideas to prove they worth paying. Sadly 99% of ideas generated in this way are usually unworkable tosh. QED Mr Ladyman's "Marine Officers"!
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Having seen the 'over-ambitious-yet-under-talented' policy officer type up close in Devon County Council, I suspect that Mr Ladyman was one and the same. Sadly the Political machine is far too full of these idea-mongers, whose main purpose seems to be to generate ideas to prove they worth paying. Sadly 99% of ideas generated in this way are usually unworkable tosh. QED Mr Ladyman's "Marine Officers"!
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
futurama
Well-Known Member
Perhaps the CG over-reacted when Commander Collis's name entered the frame along with his scrambled egg!.Maybe they were after brownie points, instead they got egg on their face.
doug748
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
people will stop using the CG for passage safety
[/ QUOTE ]
I stopped years back.
Two seasons ago the engine played up in France. So part of the return trip was, in effect, engineless. I thought of informing the CG.......but I have heard too many stories like that of Cmdr Collis.
people will stop using the CG for passage safety
[/ QUOTE ]
I stopped years back.
Two seasons ago the engine played up in France. So part of the return trip was, in effect, engineless. I thought of informing the CG.......but I have heard too many stories like that of Cmdr Collis.
benjenbav
Well-Known Member
I am really struggling to make sense of this story and, I wondered, if you could shed some light on it given your knowledge of those involved.
First, why would someone phone the CG to find out the whereabouts of their spouse on a trip where the boat would scarcely have been out of cellphone coverage for more than a few hours.
Second, when the lifeboat arrived, why did the coxswain not assess the situation and realise that no help was required. Surely, any boat that's making satisfactory way under its own auspices should be left alone?
Third, what pollution is a sailboat capable of making that involves the mobilisation of a lifeboat which will certainly pump out more pollution than would be caused by dumping the whole of a typical yacht's fuel tank.
All seems very odd to me.
First, why would someone phone the CG to find out the whereabouts of their spouse on a trip where the boat would scarcely have been out of cellphone coverage for more than a few hours.
Second, when the lifeboat arrived, why did the coxswain not assess the situation and realise that no help was required. Surely, any boat that's making satisfactory way under its own auspices should be left alone?
Third, what pollution is a sailboat capable of making that involves the mobilisation of a lifeboat which will certainly pump out more pollution than would be caused by dumping the whole of a typical yacht's fuel tank.
All seems very odd to me.
Athene V30
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
First, why would someone phone the CG to find out the whereabouts of their spouse on a trip where the boat would scarcely have been out of cellphone coverage for more than a few hours.
[/ QUOTE ] Do not know if Michael uses a mobile and the coverage off the East Coast from my experience is not good. Certainly from Holland to Essex / Suffolk there is a gap of a lot more than a few hours particularly if becalmed!
[ QUOTE ]
Second, when the lifeboat arrived, why did the coxswain not assess the situation and realise that no help was required. Surely, any boat that's making satisfactory way under its own auspices should be left alone?
[/ QUOTE ]
The Observer in the aircraft that was diverted to look out for the boat initiated his 'SoSRep powers' and as such the RNLI Cox'n had to follow orders. Unfortunately the prat of an observer needed to know the meaning of them and interpret with a bit of common sense.
I feel for the RNLI Lifebaot skipper who was stuck between a rock and a hard place - Official telling him to tow, Skipper sayign in no danger don't want tow. I expect in his seamans mind a tow was not necessary.
[ QUOTE ]
Third, what pollution is a sailboat capable of making that involves the mobilisation of a lifeboat which will certainly pump out more pollution than would be caused by dumping the whole of a typical yacht's fuel tank.
[/ QUOTE ]
Very little indeed.
I am pleased that an apology has been given to the Red Fox skipper Michael who I know through the RNSA. A lesser individual would have given up rather than stand up to several agencies as he has. His wife has come in for all sorts of stick and she is not one who would flap to HMCG, she is a sailor herself and is used to him sailing in a variety of conditions.
First, why would someone phone the CG to find out the whereabouts of their spouse on a trip where the boat would scarcely have been out of cellphone coverage for more than a few hours.
[/ QUOTE ] Do not know if Michael uses a mobile and the coverage off the East Coast from my experience is not good. Certainly from Holland to Essex / Suffolk there is a gap of a lot more than a few hours particularly if becalmed!
[ QUOTE ]
Second, when the lifeboat arrived, why did the coxswain not assess the situation and realise that no help was required. Surely, any boat that's making satisfactory way under its own auspices should be left alone?
[/ QUOTE ]
The Observer in the aircraft that was diverted to look out for the boat initiated his 'SoSRep powers' and as such the RNLI Cox'n had to follow orders. Unfortunately the prat of an observer needed to know the meaning of them and interpret with a bit of common sense.
I feel for the RNLI Lifebaot skipper who was stuck between a rock and a hard place - Official telling him to tow, Skipper sayign in no danger don't want tow. I expect in his seamans mind a tow was not necessary.
[ QUOTE ]
Third, what pollution is a sailboat capable of making that involves the mobilisation of a lifeboat which will certainly pump out more pollution than would be caused by dumping the whole of a typical yacht's fuel tank.
[/ QUOTE ]
Very little indeed.
I am pleased that an apology has been given to the Red Fox skipper Michael who I know through the RNSA. A lesser individual would have given up rather than stand up to several agencies as he has. His wife has come in for all sorts of stick and she is not one who would flap to HMCG, she is a sailor herself and is used to him sailing in a variety of conditions.
C
Chrusty1
Guest
You and me both..........unless somebody has got the real S.P. on these alleged events, I am beginning to smell farmyard! To put it another way.....Let's sling a bit of shite around, and see what it sticks to?
Are we really to suppose that RNLI Coxswains are a bunch of inexperienced muppets??? Are we really to suppose that the CG is manned by the same? I musn't get carried away here, because it is not outside the realms of possibilty, that mistakes can be made.........If that is the case, who made them and why is what we need to know, not all this second hand conjecture.
Those of you that are saying these events happened just as you say they did, please supply links or references to the alleged events so that we can have a look for ourselves.
Are we really to suppose that RNLI Coxswains are a bunch of inexperienced muppets??? Are we really to suppose that the CG is manned by the same? I musn't get carried away here, because it is not outside the realms of possibilty, that mistakes can be made.........If that is the case, who made them and why is what we need to know, not all this second hand conjecture.
Those of you that are saying these events happened just as you say they did, please supply links or references to the alleged events so that we can have a look for ourselves.
Athene V30
Well-Known Member
See my previous post and also other threads.
The RNLI are not at fault here. It is down to the activation of SoSRep powers which were wrongly initiated by the Observer.
This story is TRUE.
The RNLI are not at fault here. It is down to the activation of SoSRep powers which were wrongly initiated by the Observer.
This story is TRUE.
David_Jersey
Well-Known Member
Thinking about this overnight, I still struggle to believe that the RNLI would be a party to this. HM Govt for sure, but......
I would really like to think this was not true or at least their were a few material facts omitted.
[ QUOTE ]
and as such the RNLI Cox'n had to follow orders.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Only followng orders" - Where have I heard that before?.......sounds like the Civil Service, where common sense defers to procedures - even when folk know it's nonsense.
In practice I really cannot see the RNLI launching an armed boarding party to seize control of a vessel - so a robust "No" (even if needed to be repeated with the odd "F" word) should suffice..........at least until folk arrive ashore........and the fact that one arrived safely should be a big help in evidencing that the boat was not in need of rescue.
Useful thread, as forewarned is forearmed.
Anyone got anything direct from the RNLI on the scenario discussed? (even if not the specific case).
I would really like to think this was not true or at least their were a few material facts omitted.
[ QUOTE ]
and as such the RNLI Cox'n had to follow orders.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Only followng orders" - Where have I heard that before?.......sounds like the Civil Service, where common sense defers to procedures - even when folk know it's nonsense.
In practice I really cannot see the RNLI launching an armed boarding party to seize control of a vessel - so a robust "No" (even if needed to be repeated with the odd "F" word) should suffice..........at least until folk arrive ashore........and the fact that one arrived safely should be a big help in evidencing that the boat was not in need of rescue.
Useful thread, as forewarned is forearmed.
Anyone got anything direct from the RNLI on the scenario discussed? (even if not the specific case).
graham
Well-Known Member
If I heard this story in a Yacht club bar I would have taken it with a pinch of salt.Its printed in Mays edition of Yachting Monthly,Im sure that YM would check the facts on a potentially controversial report such as this.
If you are accusing me of being a $hit stirrer please check the facts for yourself before levelling accusations at me.
If you are accusing me of being a $hit stirrer please check the facts for yourself before levelling accusations at me.
C
Chrusty1
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
See my previous post and also other threads.
The RNLI are not at fault here. It is down to the activation of SoSRep powers which were wrongly initiated by the Observer.
This story is TRUE.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry mate, not good enough......I am not being horrible to you, but as I said in my previous post, there are too many question marks hanging over this one, and what people have to say on a forum such as this is not evidence, it is heresay.
If somebody has screwed up at this magnitude, evidence for it must exist somewhere, so link or references please?
See my previous post and also other threads.
The RNLI are not at fault here. It is down to the activation of SoSRep powers which were wrongly initiated by the Observer.
This story is TRUE.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry mate, not good enough......I am not being horrible to you, but as I said in my previous post, there are too many question marks hanging over this one, and what people have to say on a forum such as this is not evidence, it is heresay.
If somebody has screwed up at this magnitude, evidence for it must exist somewhere, so link or references please?