Replace rigging screws or not?

[Catalina36]

Good to hear. Thats probably above average. Do you use a bosuns chair or you got steps?

Self-built powered hoist with an electric winch, as in something you'd see on the front of a Land Rover, not a windlass that someone has to tail. Saves all the pain in my knees. Two halyard job, climbers and descenders as back-up. I don't bounce well these days.

 

[Catalina36]

Unfortunately I have learned that "professional" does not mean competent. As a colleague of mine used to say, "A professional is someone who knows exactly how bad a job they can get away with, while an amateur is someone who does the best job they possibly can for the love of it." When I bought my glider the instrument panel had been newly overhauled by a professional. Every single connection (pitot, static, total energy) was wrong. Discovering that on aerotow was character-forming.

I bought new rigging for my Hunter 490 from a professional rigging company some years ago, supplying the old stuff as patterns. Every new stay was wrong from a backstay 2m too long to a forestay 1m too short.

I lived in a house which was rewired by a professional shortly before I moved in. He fed three 13A double sockets with a length of 1.5 square millimetre flex from the cellar lighting circuit.



In the days of chaps with pipes and Rileys, one checked POWER (petrol, oil, water, electrics and rubber) before every trip. Even on the two old (51 and 45 years) I have in use I rarely check, but I know them both very, very well indeed.

As a colleague of mine used to say, "A professional is someone who knows exactly how bad a job they can get away with, while an amateur is someone who does the best job they possibly can for the love of it."

How true. 50 years ago I started doing DIY because I couldn't afford to pay anyone, then over the years I started to pay people then moved back to DIY as the only person I could trust to do the job properly was me, no matter how much I paid. There is no such thing as a "professional". There are only money-grabbing sharks who don't GAF.

 

[James_Calvert]

John.

My boat was originally fitted with ss rigging screws. Kept them for the first rigging change at 12 years. Replaced with fancy chrome plated bronze at a 24 year rerig. Boat now 35, so maybe another rigging change due soon? Depends on condition of course but these bronze jobs are better than ss aren't they. So I should expect to keep them for yet another rerig at the 48 year point until the boat is 60 or even 72 if they are twice as good.

Shouldn't I?

 

[JumbleDuck]

How true. 50 years ago I started doing DIY because I couldn't afford to pay anyone, then over the years I started to pay people then moved back to DIY as the only person I could trust to do the job properly was me, no matter how much I paid. There is no such thing as a "professional". There are only money-grabbing sharks who don't GAF.

I think that's a little unfair. I know some very good professionals - for rigging, for example, I have complete faith in Niall Clarke in Bangor - but I don't assume that someone is particularly good, or even competent, at something just because they are paid to do it.

 

[geem]

I think there are considerations before you adopt a strategy of replacement every ten years. Insurance companies want you to replace the rig as often as possible because it minimises their financial risk.
How conservatively rigged is your yacht? How does the wire size compare to other similar sized yachts? What are your bottle screws made from! Bronze or s/s? Is amazing how two similar sized yachts with similar sail area can have vastly differing rigging.
A friend has a 1970s Van de Stadt Rebel. Rigging is 8mm. Our 1970s designed Trintella of the same length is rigged in 12mm.
Ours wasnt upgraded at some point. All Trintella 44/45s have the same 12mm rigging. I think it is fair to say our rig is at less risk than the Rebel. I would want to replace the rig more often if it was lightly rigged.
Bronze bottlescrews are stronger than s/s and are not liable to galling. I wont fit s/s bottlescrews.
We have bronze bottlescrews. I have just replaced them. We don't know their age but at least 20 years. We didnt replace them when we rerigged the boat in 2013 as the rigger said they were perfect. We did replaced them last years as I found a tiny crack in one during a routine rig inspection. I inspect the main mast rig after every boisterous sail or long distance sail. So about every three months. Its not difficult to carryout a rig inspection with a magnifying glass and a bit of time. Dont rush the job. Spend some time up there.
The last rig inspection revealed a broken strand on the babystay. Swaged terminals are more susceptible to wire failure than stalok or similar. My failure was on a swage terminal.
The riggers here in Horta Azores say the main wires they replace on boats crossing the Atlantic are lowers with swage fittings.

 

[capnsensible]

Well theres something. I had a lower with a swage fitting replaced by MAYS in Horta some time ago! They do always seem busy and extremely good. West East crossings certainly seem to tease out the weaknesses.

An old colleague of mine used to say 'if you want a job doing properly, use someone who has done it thousands of times and knows what they are doing. Repairing amateur bodge jobs takes far longer'.

 

[Dogone]

Stainless needs replacing frequently mainly because of its susceptibility to stress corrosion cracking. A suitable bronze like NAB and used in marine conditions does not fail for this reason. You may need to replace bronze for other reasons, such as wear, or damage from being overloaded, but if inspected and found good then I would keep it. I would also phone all riggers until I found one who would say this or similar in an email, so if your insurer blames any future failure on your lack of maintenance you have some good contemporaneous evidence to defend your claim. I would photographically document your survey too.

Dye testing works well. I used it on my whole rig and it found cracks in two stainless parts, which was otherwise invisible. I used Ardrox. There are others. Aviation authorities will often mandate dye testing of certain parts. They do it for good reason. I have used it successfully in aviation parts also.

 

[Rappey]

The idea of replacing the rigging but not the bottle screws seems like half a job?
Stainless is stronger than chromed aluminium bronze .
Bronze is favoured for anti galling, the threads will not seize under load.
Stainless can fatigue, stress fracture and break.
Bronze will stretch first showing obvious signs of stress.
Some riggers suggest bronze rigging screws can be used twice.
I guess it's up to the individual on how far they want to go with preventative maintenance ?

 

[john_morris_uk]

The idea of replacing the rigging but not the bottle screws seems like half a job?
Stainless is stronger than chromed aluminium bronze .
Bronze is favoured for anti galling, the threads will not seize under load.
Stainless can fatigue, stress fracture and break.
Bronze will stretch first showing obvious signs of stress.
Some riggers suggest bronze rigging screws can be used twice.
I guess it's up to the individual on how far they want to go with preventative maintenance ?

An interesting discussion and thank you for the comments. I don't want to stop the discussion but part of the equation is that the boat is being prepped for sailing off into the blue. Hence we will bite the bullet and have new turnbuckles/bottle screws. The current ones will be having their twentieth birthday when we are somewhere off round the world and that's not a good idea. I will keep at least some of the old ones as spares in case of accidents.

I don't buy the s/s is stronger than bronze argument by the way. The turnbuckles are engineered to be equally as strong either way. I completely favour bronze for its anti-galling properties compared to stainless on stainless. (I've had a s/s bottle screw seize from galling and it's a highly frustrating experience.). My next decision is around whether to go for all Sta-lok compression fittings. The argument is that if you carry a length of s/s wire longer than the longest bit of rigging you've got, you can always replace a shroud etc as the ends are DIY. Carry some spare cones and the jobs a good-un. However, I see that Sta-lok are now offering extra length threaded rod terminals. (eg Sta-Lok Long Stud)

The first sign off rigging failure is often a strand breaking at the swage. It seems that (assuming you keep the mast up with running rigging triced up appropriately), you should be able to cut back to good wire and put a new end on if you carry one of the on board. I don't fancy having to do it, but it is a possible solution when you're mid ocean and spot the problem early enough. It wouldn't help the forestay, but we've got two of those anyway... It also won't help at the top of the mast... so I'll look at other possibilities there.

 

[JumbleDuck]

An old colleague of mine used to say 'if you want a job doing properly, use someone who has done it thousands of times and knows what they are doing. Repairing amateur bodge jobs takes far longer'.

Not half as long as repairing professional bodge jobs. The electricians who rewired my house left in a clock socket, at my request, but didn't because "you only said you wanted to keep it, you didn't say you wanted it connected". Since they pulled the existing wire clean out for both that and another socket which they didn't even fit, the cost of restoring the status quo ante would be into the thousands.

 

[geem]

An interesting discussion and thank you for the comments. I don't want to stop the discussion but part of the equation is that the boat is being prepped for sailing off into the blue. Hence we will bite the bullet and have new turnbuckles/bottle screws. The current ones will be having their twentieth birthday when we are somewhere off round the world and that's not a good idea. I will keep at least some of the old ones as spares in case of accidents.

I don't buy the s/s is stronger than bronze argument by the way. The turnbuckles are engineered to be equally as strong either way. I completely favour bronze for its anti-galling properties compared to stainless on stainless. (I've had a s/s bottle screw seize from galling and it's a highly frustrating experience.). My next decision is around whether to go for all Sta-lok compression fittings. The argument is that if you carry a length of s/s wire longer than the longest bit of rigging you've got, you can always replace a shroud etc as the ends are DIY. Carry some spare cones and the jobs a good-un. However, I see that Sta-lok are now offering extra length threaded rod terminals. (eg Sta-Lok Long Stud)

The first sign off rigging failure is often a strand breaking at the swage. It seems that (assuming you keep the mast up with running rigging triced up appropriately), you should be able to cut back to good wire and put a new end on if you carry one of the on board. I don't fancy having to do it, but it is a possible solution when you're mid ocean and spot the problem early enough. It wouldn't help the forestay, but we've got two of those anyway... It also won't help at the top of the mast... so I'll look at other possibilities there.

I guess the strength of bottlescrews varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. When I last checked bronze were stronger than s/s.
Rather than carry a length of wire another option is to carry stalok fittings with purpose made extension plates. Wire never seems to break halfway down its length. They fail at swage connections. By chopping of the swage you can add a Stalok fitting and extension plates to get back to the same overall wire length. Alternatively, spare toggles will also put the length back. I did this on my mizzen mast before leaving the Caribbean as we were unable to get rigging replaced whilst in lockdown. It will do us until we get back to the UK where we will rerigg the mizzen mast

 

[zoidberg]

John_M is a 'prepper' and a good 'un, by all accounts. There's lotsa goodwill to him for his 'off wanderings'....

I found myself thinking about Jean-Luc Van Den Heede and his little incident deep in the Far South, during the Golden Globe Race, when a rather violent moment caused his lowers through-bolt to tear down the mastwall about 10cm or so. He was able to 'trice up' ( luvverly old nautical term! ) the crippled fitting, and thus his mast, using a length of high-spec Dyneema 'someone had unaccountably left on board'. This lash-up held things together all the way back to France.....

There's a case can be made for carrying a goodly length of UHDPE/SK79-type cordage - of appropriate strength/diameter and with appropriate bits - to permit emergency repairs and/or 'tricing up'. That would be far easier to manipulate at sea than a coiled-up length of 12mm s/s, which could remain stowed deep in the 'oubliette' until safely alongside in some gentle haven.

 

[geem]

John_M is a 'prepper' and a good 'un, by all accounts. There's lotsa goodwill to him for his 'off wanderings'....

I found myself thinking about Jean-Luc Van Den Heede and his little incident deep in the Far South, during the Golden Globe Race, when a rather violent moment caused his lowers through-bolt to tear down the mastwall about 10cm or so. He was able to 'trice up' ( luvverly old nautical term! ) the crippled fitting, and thus his mast, using a length of high-spec Dyneema 'someone had unaccountably left on board'. This lash-up held things together all the way back to France.....

There's a case can be made for carrying a goodly length of UHDPE/SK79-type cordage - of appropriate strength/diameter and with appropriate bits - to permit emergency repairs and/or 'tricing up'. That would be far easier to manipulate at sea than a coiled-up length of 12mm s/s, which could remain stowed deep in the 'oubliette' until safely alongside in some gentle haven.

I replaced a failed baby stay on an Atlantic West to East passage in 2005. Went up to spreaders and removed stay. Cut off failed swage and added staylock. The now too short wire was lashed with skinny dyneema. It lasted until we got to Horta and MAYS made me a new babystay. Its why I now carry spare toggles or extension plates as well as Stalok fittings?

 

[capnsensible]

Not half as long as repairing professional bodge jobs. The electricians who rewired my house left in a clock socket, at my request, but didn't because "you only said you wanted to keep it, you didn't say you wanted it connected". Since they pulled the existing wire clean out for both that and another socket which they didn't even fit, the cost of restoring the status quo ante would be into the thousands.

Out of interest, who maintained your glider? As I understand it, in civil leisure aviation on powered craft, arent some inspections ans servicing mandated by qualified pros? It certainly is when you get to commercial sailing. In some circumstances, such as life jackets and fire extinguishers I know I can do it coz I have! But a certified inspection is required.

At no time however, did I think I woz having my wallet felt for the sake of it. Same for riggers, grp repairers, surveyors, diesel dudes and sailmakers. Guess Ive been lucky.

 

[capnsensible]

John_M is a 'prepper' and a good 'un, by all accounts. There's lotsa goodwill to him for his 'off wanderings'....

I found myself thinking about Jean-Luc Van Den Heede and his little incident deep in the Far South, during the Golden Globe Race, when a rather violent moment caused his lowers through-bolt to tear down the mastwall about 10cm or so. He was able to 'trice up' ( luvverly old nautical term! ) the crippled fitting, and thus his mast, using a length of high-spec Dyneema 'someone had unaccountably left on board'. This lash-up held things together all the way back to France.....

There's a case can be made for carrying a goodly length of UHDPE/SK79-type cordage - of appropriate strength/diameter and with appropriate bits - to permit emergency repairs and/or 'tricing up'. That would be far easier to manipulate at sea than a coiled-up length of 12mm s/s, which could remain stowed deep in the 'oubliette' until safely alongside in some gentle haven.

Ive used some spare rigging wire and 4 bulldog grips to bridge a broken bit. Wouldnt have trusted it forever, mind.

Oh, and some nonstretch line and a hammer (!) to fashion a 'spanish windlass' to secure a boom to a mast when the securing plate fell off (literally, not much wind, not a daft gybe) mid atlantic. As you do.

In happier times, an old oppo of mine was a watch leader on a Services Nic 55 out in the Pacific. JM might know him? 'Toons the noo Fraser? Anyway, loong before mobile phones, a shroud and spreader broke. That meant 5 weeks on some Pacific Island waiting for new bits. How awful for them, 5 weeks being paid to go on the piss every day and conduct a number of 'international relations' as you can imagine.

 

[zoidberg]

and a hammer

Would that be the ubiquitous 'Birmingham Screwdriver'....?

 

[Rappey]

Before any comparison is made it is important to explain that not all Bronze is of Naval Engineering
Standard (NES 747). This standard refers to heat treated, cast nickel aluminium bronze, which is the
preferred bronze for sea water conditions. Many bronze marine products on the market today are either
aluminium bronze or silicone bronze, these do not perform at the same level as the above. Cast bronze
can have many impurities which affect the ability to resist corrosion in a sea water environment.
Manufacturers of bronze marine fittings often neglect to clarify the type of bronze used. This should
always be checked as performance does vary.
Similarly, there are various stainless steels. The 300 series stainless steels are generally considered to
resist rust, however 304 is inadequate for marine applications, where 316 is the accepted marine grade
stainless steel. 316 shows good general resistance to corrosion and is widely used, however in certain
applications (specifically where there is no oxygen present) 316 will be susceptible to corrosion. To
increase resistance to corrosion a surface treatment such as electro polishing will provide extra
protection. Alternatively there are superior grades of stainless steel which offer almost twice the
resistance to corrosion that ordinary 316 or 316L offers. These include duplex stainless steel (2205),
super duplex SS (2507).
Research conducted in the UK comparing nickel aluminium bronze (NES 747) with various stainless
steels in an offshore sea water environment, revealed some interesting findings.
A composite ranking for resistance to corrosion was established, positioning the NiAl bronze below the
duplex stainless steels and above 316 SS.
Given that most bronze fittings are made from less noble bronzes such as silicone bronze and aluminium
bronze, which are affected more severely by galvanic corrosion, the ranking of these becomes similar to
316 stainless steel.
Research also recommended that the bronze products not be used in polluted waters.
The use of duplex and super duplex stainless steels in the marine environment is recommended as these
metals with higher levels of molybdenum and chromium, apart from being far stronger than bronze,
provide superior resistance to intergranular, pitting, crevice, galvanic and chloride stress corrosion.
Before any comparison is made it is important to explain that not all Bronze is of Naval Engineering
Standard (NES 747). This standard refers to heat treated, cast nickel aluminium bronze, which is the
preferred bronze for sea water conditions. Many bronze marine products on the market today are either
aluminium bronze or silicone bronze, these do not perform at the same level as the above. Cast bronze
can have many impurities which affect the ability to resist corrosion in a sea water environment.
Manufacturers of bronze marine fittings often neglect to clarify the type of bronze used. This should
always be checked as performance does vary.
Similarly, there are various stainless steels. The 300 series stainless steels are generally considered to
resist rust, however 304 is inadequate for marine applications, where 316 is the accepted marine grade
stainless steel. 316 shows good general resistance to corrosion and is widely used, however in certain
applications (specifically where there is no oxygen present) 316 will be susceptible to corrosion. To
increase resistance to corrosion a surface treatment such as electro polishing will provide extra
protection. Alternatively there are superior grades of stainless steel which offer almost twice the
resistance to corrosion that ordinary 316 or 316L offers. These include duplex stainless steel (2205),
super duplex SS (2507).
Research conducted in the UK comparing nickel aluminium bronze (NES 747) with various stainless
steels in an offshore sea water environment, revealed some interesting findings.
A composite ranking for resistance to corrosion was established, positioning the NiAl bronze below the
duplex stainless steels and above 316 SS.
Given that most bronze fittings are made from less noble bronzes such as silicone bronze and aluminium
bronze, which are affected more severely by galvanic corrosion, the ranking of these becomes similar to
316 stainless steel.
Research also recommended that the bronze products not be used in polluted waters.
The use of duplex and super duplex stainless steels in the marine environment is recommended as these
metals with higher levels of molybdenum and chromium, apart from being far stronger than bronze,
provide superior resistance to intergranular, pitting, crevice, galvanic and chloride stress corrosion.

 

[Dogone]

Before any comparison is made it is important to explain that not all Bronze is of Naval Engineering
Standard (NES 747). This standard refers to heat treated, cast nickel aluminium bronze, which is the
preferred bronze for sea water conditions. Many bronze marine products on the market today are either
aluminium bronze or silicone bronze, these do not perform at the same level as the above. Cast bronze
can have many impurities which affect the ability to resist corrosion in a sea water environment.
Manufacturers of bronze marine fittings often neglect to clarify the type of bronze used. This should
always be checked as performance does vary.
Similarly, there are various stainless steels. The 300 series stainless steels are generally considered to
resist rust, however 304 is inadequate for marine applications, where 316 is the accepted marine grade
stainless steel. 316 shows good general resistance to corrosion and is widely used, however in certain
applications (specifically where there is no oxygen present) 316 will be susceptible to corrosion. To
increase resistance to corrosion a surface treatment such as electro polishing will provide extra
protection. Alternatively there are superior grades of stainless steel which offer almost twice the
resistance to corrosion that ordinary 316 or 316L offers. These include duplex stainless steel (2205),
super duplex SS (2507).
Research conducted in the UK comparing nickel aluminium bronze (NES 747) with various stainless
steels in an offshore sea water environment, revealed some interesting findings.
A composite ranking for resistance to corrosion was established, positioning the NiAl bronze below the
duplex stainless steels and above 316 SS.
Given that most bronze fittings are made from less noble bronzes such as silicone bronze and aluminium
bronze, which are affected more severely by galvanic corrosion, the ranking of these becomes similar to
316 stainless steel.
Research also recommended that the bronze products not be used in polluted waters.
The use of duplex and super duplex stainless steels in the marine environment is recommended as these
metals with higher levels of molybdenum and chromium, apart from being far stronger than bronze,
provide superior resistance to intergranular, pitting, crevice, galvanic and chloride stress corrosion.
Before any comparison is made it is important to explain that not all Bronze is of Naval Engineering
Standard (NES 747). This standard refers to heat treated, cast nickel aluminium bronze, which is the
preferred bronze for sea water conditions. Many bronze marine products on the market today are either
aluminium bronze or silicone bronze, these do not perform at the same level as the above. Cast bronze
can have many impurities which affect the ability to resist corrosion in a sea water environment.
Manufacturers of bronze marine fittings often neglect to clarify the type of bronze used. This should
always be checked as performance does vary.
Similarly, there are various stainless steels. The 300 series stainless steels are generally considered to
resist rust, however 304 is inadequate for marine applications, where 316 is the accepted marine grade
stainless steel. 316 shows good general resistance to corrosion and is widely used, however in certain
applications (specifically where there is no oxygen present) 316 will be susceptible to corrosion. To
increase resistance to corrosion a surface treatment such as electro polishing will provide extra
protection. Alternatively there are superior grades of stainless steel which offer almost twice the
resistance to corrosion that ordinary 316 or 316L offers. These include duplex stainless steel (2205),
super duplex SS (2507).
Research conducted in the UK comparing nickel aluminium bronze (NES 747) with various stainless
steels in an offshore sea water environment, revealed some interesting findings.
A composite ranking for resistance to corrosion was established, positioning the NiAl bronze below the
duplex stainless steels and above 316 SS.
Given that most bronze fittings are made from less noble bronzes such as silicone bronze and aluminium
bronze, which are affected more severely by galvanic corrosion, the ranking of these becomes similar to
316 stainless steel.
Research also recommended that the bronze products not be used in polluted waters.
The use of duplex and super duplex stainless steels in the marine environment is recommended as these
metals with higher levels of molybdenum and chromium, apart from being far stronger than bronze,
provide superior resistance to intergranular, pitting, crevice, galvanic and chloride stress corrosion.

I’ve got a simpler solution. Titanium. Grade 5. Bullet proof and nowadays not terribly expensive.

 

[Rappey]

I’ve got a simpler solution. Titanium. Grade 5. Bullet proof and nowadays not terribly expensive.

Has to be the ultimate solution with the only problem being no one as yet are mass producing fittings for boats

 

[Zing]

Has to be the ultimate solution with the only problem being no one as yet are mass producing fittings for boats

I've not seen bronze wire. Or other parts much. Have you?