regulation of liveaboards

[nivin]

Hello everyone!!

I work for the District of Columbia City Council and the local liveaboard community has asked the Council for legislation similar to our rental housing laws to protect them from marina owners. I am trying to do reaserch to discover what other jurisdictions do in this area and whether marina are usually as arbitrary as alleged. I have little knowledge of boating and none concerning liveaboard problems with marinas. I do know that at least 2 of our states (Idaho and California) have passed legislation, but both require the vessel to be almost permanently attached to marina services such as electricity and sewage. Our liveaboard community is asking that such a limitation not be included.

I would appreciate any information you may have on this issue, especially places which have laws about this and how boaters feel about being protected from the marinas.

Thank you for reading this post.

Michael Battle

 

[heerenleed]

Michael,
I don't know of anyone outside the Netherlands, but every liveaboard in my country does not need any protection from marinas, but rather from the authorities. The problem seems to be that authorities have a way of thinking like: there is no regulation for living aboard a boat, so it MUST be forbidden. Things like being forced to be permanently on marinas services are, of course, completely contrary to the liveaboard's needs, that is, if he wants to live aboard a boat that is actually being sailed. The problem is often, that people living aboard non-moving boats, start to behave like people living in a fixed home and start accumulating things around their boats. This often causes marinas to try and get rid of them, as they often make their surroundings look less attractive for other (potential) marina users might like. Also, in my country, marina owners are sometimes afraid of authorities who might withdraw permissions if the marina allows illegal activities (and, as I said above, many local authorities feel that living aboard a yacht must
be illegal because there are no regulations). I feel, that, as soon as authorities stop interfering excessively with people's personal lives and the choices they make, marinas would be much more tolerant about liveaboards.

Forcing yachts to connect to sewage systems is, of course, another example of the neurotic behaviour often seen in the US concerning environment. First, stop using rediculously large and heavy US cars, and update the US industry which is still many times more polluting than necessary with the actual state of technology.
(sorry about all this, but I could not help letting this out....)
All the bestMichael

Peter a/b SV Heerenleed, Steenbergen, Netherlands

 

[charles_reed]

An interesting sermon - but Nederlanders are always trying to improve the world. ;-)

The French demand that any boat, being lived on as a sole address, in their waters for more than 6 months is re-registered to French categorisation and the occupiers pay local taxes and qualify in exactly the same way as house dwellers.

In the UK, as the Nederlands, liveaboards appear to be a puzzle to local authorities, who tend to ignore their existence, as do central government.

I suspect that your plaintiffs want to have fair rent protection etc. that people ahore enjoy.
The only problem with that is that one man's protection is another's imposition and I'd suggest they could always vote with their keels.

 

[ToMo]

Involentary shudder!

Couldn't help thinking about a Dr Who, Darlek(?) voice shouting "YOU WILL BE REGULATED"
<G>
TôMö

 

[Guest]

Hi Micheal,

Keep any regulations sensible and to a minimum as already suggested.
I think to insist on permanent connction to power and sewage is going to encourage a floating junk covered permanant home situation.

I'm sure you already have regulations against any polluting activities that may occur.

Here in Australia we also need protecting from the local authorities who often implement regulations that fit the overall situation but penalise innocent minorities like live aboard yachties. Marina operators are generally fine.

In one state here they only let you "live" on your boat for so many consecutive days per month (cant remember exactly) which if applied would preclude a 2 week holiday on your boat.

Bit of a rant aswell but hope it helps.

Cheers

Ian

 

[firstspirit]

There seems to be alot of stone-throwing potential in the issues raised with people who choose to liveaboard their vessels.

As the world obviously becomes paranoid, with controlling everybody who does not want to belong to the 'norms' of 2 up 2 down, may I suggest that before we enter into debate of looking at other people and the way they choose to live THEIR lives, in, on or at thier boats - perhaps we should take a good look at ourselves first?

I do not assume that the 'natural' order of things is correct. Much that drives me and others alike, is an absolute belief in the freedom to choose. Living outside that mad, freedom sucking life-style is a truly beautiful, WAY OF LIFE. There is a vast difference between the two, as anyone with a mind that works propery will understand.

12 years as a continuous liveaboard, no intention of a change, it's great!

 

[ccscott49]

I don't think anybody here is stone throwing, just wants to know some facts. I love the way of life aswell, and liveaboard permanently. People don't as a rule understand us and authority doesn't like us, "no fixed abode " and all that, no phones, no bank accounts ad infinitum! we do not fit the mold, so we must be bad or at least non-conformist and dangerous, untrustworthy etc. etc, Especially younger people!! who are considered wasters etc. Older people are just considered eccentric or misplaced hippies! great innit' Stuff em'

 

[Guest]

If you are really serious about looking into the needs of the liveaboard boater as opposed to what the marina operators want to protect their investment. I humbly suggest you sit down with them and see what their needs really are and how they are effected by present regulations. Marathon broght the gropups together for 4 workshops and then made a proposal which after further needed to be overhauled so both sides were satisfied.
California has BCDC a very arbitratory group trying to control everything that has to do with othe Oceans and Bays of California. Their IMPERIAL attitude has won them no friends and instead of clearing the waters they have made a real mess and muddied it almost beyond repair.
Take a sound view, try to find a middle ground; its there it just takes knowledgable
people to find it.
Respectfully
Gene Koblick

Keep on Learning!!

 

[firstspirit]

I would like to inform of typical issues or problems liveaboards encounter with marinas.

No respect as customers.
When their pretty marinas are sky high and full to busting with all berths occupied or in demand, one tends to feel as a liveaboard, that your continuous 'occupation' of their precious berth is just an inconvenience.

A bigger prettier boat could fit where you have been quite happy to moor for years. Contempt creeps in, Marina operators and their staff. They can become bored with you and any complaints, no matter how valid, or how polite you make them, are not treated in the same way as a casual berth holder staying for perhaps 1 night or a few days etc.

Not appreciated.
Marinas do not appreciate the positive benefit that liveaboards generally bring to the environment of marinas.
Extra security! Continuous eyes and ears, all for free.
Extra maintenance watch, reporting of all malfunctioning equipment, all for free. Character. Individuals may become friendly, cooperative first- line informers, often more qualified in local knowledge than marina staff or management,. Sometimes, even in relation to how to get the best 'included' service from the marina. All this is for free.
Community. Marina operators detest liveaboards for 'coming together' on issues such as rising berth charges, quality of service, dealing with complaints etc.

What's really strange about all these things that operators detest about liveabooards is that when they are struggling to 'make ends meet' between boom and bust economic trends, suddenly LIVEABOARDS become a vital revenue. They hate you but need you.

Just a few facts of life for your perusal!

 

[firstspirit]

"Floating junk-covered permanent home!".

I'm not in total agreement that anyone who connects a boat to a sewage or electricity facilities may automatically qualify for such a negative statement directed towards them.
Could you possibly have this same atitude towards someone permanently connected to same if they lived in a house, or a flat, a bungalow or whatever?
I do not think so. For whatever reason, I suggest it's probably in the way in which we are programmed in our youth, anyone who sets-up 'home' in an alternative to the majority, has got to be judged differently. It's not because we know anything about the individual but we do know that they have made an individual choice. That gutsy expression of freedom, the experience of water-living-which house-dwelling sailors envy, and only get to feel on occassional week-ends or stints at sea, is probably what drives such automatic critisism. Jealousy!
I believe people who live in boats should be entitled to live in exactly in the same way as other people live in any other type of accomadation. If one chooses to live in a show house, then best of luck to you. If one chooses to operate a show boat, best of luck to you. But not every one is the same, thank God! A question of balance must surely apply to liveaboards. If one wishes to make 'home', on a boat, then let's see a bit of 'normal' visual clutter, as you would expect in an otherwise 'normal' domestic dwelling. Those who concentrate explicity on external appearances may well be missing the true beauty of what lays just beneath the surface. We are humans in our homes. It's a HOME!
I recall a phrase my late mother used to use for people who only jump to decorate the outside visual of their homes, their cars, their property, their everything, even their own bodies are not tidy enough, "all frills and no knickers!". In this instance I think beauty may well be skin deep, but the rot sometimes, goes all the way through to the core.
Marina operators and fine weather sailors must respect that liveaboards are humans too, they have feelings, emotions, get hurt, just like everybody else. Some of us are nice and respectful of our fellow humans, some are not, but that's not because we live on boats. So please, let's all just remember that can we for the next time we think we are looking at a hulk or a mess or a wreck etc? Home is home! CHEERS! I'll put my washing out now, but please don't tried to read it!

 

[Guest]

Re: Junk covered floating homes

"Junk covered floating homes"

I actually live aboard my boat. I don't presume to prejudge people on their choice of decoration of their chosen home. However I am not going to couch my comments in longwinded PC claptrap either. I think most people would know what I meant,
ie a marina is a communal living area (where it is allowed) and we have more responsibility to live and let live, I dont see that this is a licence for a few to spoil it for the majority by lowering the standard to a communally unacceptable level.
If some people want live on house boats with potted plants, lacy curtains etc thats fine.
Any half finished rusty junk (just joking) replicas covered with plastic bags (bird scarers), various rotting bits and peices, 10 cats and a noisy parrot I will send in your direction. Where is that by the way?

Cheers

Ian (The Lash, Ha Harrrrrr!! me heartys)

 

[firstspirit]

Re: Junk covered floating homes

Couldn't agree with you more captain, so we agree on a balanced atititude then?
And no, not telling, I might just be one of your neighbours already!!!

 

[Guest]

My mother operates a small marina on a lake in Oklahoma. She currently has 4 year-round "tenants" living in houseboats. They shop in her small grocery/bait shop, always fuel their boats at her pump, and help her keep an eye on all those expensive boats owned by out-of-town(state) customers. They buy their electricity from the electric company, their cable from the cable company, and their water from her(she makes about $2 a month in profit from each 'tenant' on their water usage). She recognizes the benefit of having 'paying' help, but she could also sell those slips or rent them and earn even more revenue. She has worked out a 12 month lease with her "tenants" similar to a real property lease. It includes the rules that apply to anyone using the slips and rules dealing with specific situations unique to year-round residents. The lease includes fines for noise disturbances (being in a rural area there are no police to call or local ordinances to enforce), unsanitary practices (like leaving a mess after cleaning fish), and others. The lease also provides for a yearly increase of 3%.

Her operation only has 32 slips. She has 4 rented to the 'tenants', 26 with lifts for winter storage or maintenance (all rented every single day for the last 7 years), and keeps 2 open for weekend fishermen and the like that just need a slip for a day or two. She charges rates depending on the length of stay. Those 2 slips that stay open generate as much income as 6 long-term rentals (non-resident) and the slips her residents are using were at one time day slips. So, she has decided not to allow anymore 'tenants' because she can make more by charging single day rates than by charging discounted weekly, monthly, yearly rates.

She isn't a marina mogul, and makes enough money to take care of the upkeep of the slips and covers and to pay her own bills. She has few problems with her 'tenants' and enjoys their company. She even gives them a turkey at Thanksgiving and a ham at Christmas.

That is just her experience, but I think there is something to her method.

1. Marinas should welcome a limited number of year-round guests.
2. Marinas should provide these special guests with a six to twelve month lease if the boat owner hasn't purchased the slip. If they have then the marina should charge a much smaller maintenance fee on a monthly basis.
3. Boat owners should realize that marinas are in the business of making money. Without profit the marina will fall into disrepair and their homes will be moored to decaying docks.
4. Boat owners (and all home owners) should take pride in their home and not let it become an eyesore. Just because it's rusty, creaky, and sputters a bit doesn't mean you shouldn't keep the decks clean and clear. Remember, some furniture/appliances were made for indoor use and some for outdoor use and never shall the two cross.

As far as I know Oklahoma doesn't have any laws regulating liveaboard. There are laws covering operation of a boat but to my knowledge no laws protecting persons living aboard their boat.

Final note, mail. The local post office does not recognize the houseboats as a place of residence and refused to add them to the route. Mother had to put 4 more mailboxes on her house so her tenants could recieve mail without renting a PO Box. She offers this at no charge.