Regularising VAT status in the EU.

[lustyd]

He's being more Blue and White . OP's friends are not dealing with HMRC, and your friend wasn't dealing with Greek customs.

Location isn’t relevant really, VAT is well understood and pan European. Implementation differs slightly by region but that doesn’t change what I said at all since what I mentioned is universal in the system.

 

[Irish Rover]

Location isn’t relevant really, VAT is well understood and pan European. Implementation differs slightly by region but that doesn’t change what I said at all since what I mentioned is universal in the system.

Cobblers.

 

[lustyd]

Cobblers.

Please expand on specifically what you disagree with, otherwise that’s a pretty pointless post.

 

[Tranona]

Location isn’t relevant really, VAT is well understood and pan European. Implementation differs slightly by region but that doesn’t change what I said at all since what I mentioned is universal in the system.

I am not replying directly to your post#20 as you are just digging yourself into a deeper hole so will just respond to this specific point.

You have clearly not read the original post nor my response. The situation the OP's friends are faced with is unique to Greece for the reasons I spent some time explaining. My explanation is based on my own experience of buying a boat in similar circumstances in the same period. So anything you think you know about the subject based on your HMRC anecdote is completely irrelevant.

On a more general note although the principles of VAT on boats are the same in the UK and the EU they are now completely different customs areas and the relevance of VAT "status" is different in the 2 areas. Moreover within the EU states manage VAT differently as many integrate it into their own domestic law related to the registration and control of private boats. While you may think VAT is well understood you do not seem to have much understanding yourself - hence the comments from myself and Irish Rover, both of whom have direct personal experience of dealing with Greek authorities on matter relating to VAT on boats. Suggest you also read post#19 for another direct personal experience of buying an ex charter boat in Greece which confirms what I have said.

 

[billskip]

My explanation is based on my own experience of buying a boat in similar circumstances in the same period

I bought my boat, a 1985 French built charter boat from the Greek family original owners of the charter company in about 1997, it was at that time Drachma's.
Buying boats in Greece around that time was booming. The Greek government had allowed it possible for boats to be sold by charter companies to private buyers "tax free", however as said, a paper had to be legaly drawn up and included with the bill of sale.
I would think this paper is amongst, or written into the notorised contract, that the OP/now owner would have been issued when they purchased the boat.
When i sold my boat years later to a Croation lady (in 2004?) The sale took place in Greece and the papers/vat all accepted.

 

[lustyd]

You have clearly not read the original post nor my response.

I read both, actually. You clearly didn’t understand my response, or are just refusing to acknowledge that other people know things you don’t. Either way, you're not worth arguing with, hopefully OP now has options they can work with.

 

[dtynan]

@billskip Thats interesting. I did wonder why the charter company didn’t charge VAT on the sales transaction. I managed to get some docs from the charter company and the woman there said the boat was “VAT exempt” which I assumed just meant they had bought it without VAT. Do you happen to have any references for that exemption? I have the Greek de-registration cert which has a few stamps on it and is handwritten (in Greek). I have no clue what it actually says but I will pass it on to Greek friend to see if he can translate it.

All in all, boat VAT in the EU is a bit of a nightmare, made worse by Brexit (for UK boats). It makes me want to hug my Irish registry certificate!

 

[billskip]

Thats interesting. I did wonder why the charter company didn’t charge VAT on the sales transaction.

Because at that time, for reasons I don't know, they didn't need to pay VAT upon sale or disposal.

woman there said the boat was “VAT exempt” which I assumed just meant they had bought it without VAT.

At the time I bought mine it meant they could sell it without charging VAT.

Do you happen to have any references for that exemption?

Sorry no

I have no clue what it actually says

Well the documents you need (and the one you are looking at) will be the documents presented to the notary and signed by whoever bought and sold it.
At that time I was told a " foreigner/non resident" could not own a Greek registered/flag boat, and the boat had to be taken off the register at the time of sale, if sold to a non resident, which it was (nothing to do with VAT status) I registered it on SSR immediately.

 

[billskip]

@dtynan
Hi, I don't think you can receive PM's yet as you're a new user
I have an old email address of the agent in Athens that was involved with my dealings.
I'm not prepared to post publicly.
A long shot but he may have even been the same agent involved in your dealings.

 

[Tranona]

I read both, actually. You clearly didn’t understand my response, or are just refusing to acknowledge that other people know things you don’t. Either way, you're not worth arguing with, hopefully OP now has options they can work with.

I understand your responses very clearly and enough to know they are factually incorrect and of no relevance to the OPs question. You have demonstrated that you definitely have no knowledge on the subject and pretty sure others will come to the same conclusion. There is nothing to argue about.

Clearly there is a lot of useful information for the OP, but none of it has come from you.

 

[Tranona]

Because at that time, for reasons I don't know, they didn't need to pay VAT upon sale or disposal.

At the time I bought mine it meant they could sell it without charging VAT.

Sorry no

Well the documents you need (and the one you are looking at) will be the documents presented to the notary and signed by whoever bought and sold it.
At that time I was told a " foreigner/non resident" could not own a Greek registered/flag boat, and the boat had to be taken off the register at the time of sale, if sold to a non resident, which it was (nothing to do with VAT status) I registered it on SSR immediately.

This is exactly my experience. I bought my boat through a charter management scheme in 2001 with a 48% payment. I researched it very carefully before committing and was advised of the then current practice of not paying VAT when the boat was transferred to a private owner. The advice from the charter company (the biggest in Greece at the time) was that this practice was against EU law and the Commission was taking Greece to court to force it to comply. Therefore wise in doing my sums to allow for paying VAT at the end of the contract in 6 years time. It was at that point unclear about how much it would be but their view was it would likely reflect market value or a "written down" value. In the event the agreement with customs was payment based on the original contract value. I was advised in 2003 that the Commission had won (what a surprise!) and I eventually paid VAT when the boat was transferred to us in 2008/9 with a receipt from the management company.

It is worth stressing here that it is the seller who is a VAT registered entity that is responsible for applying and accounting for VAT NOT the buyer. This is a general principle of VAT and there is no legal requirement under EU (or UK) law for the buyer to keep any evidence that VAT has been paid unless the buyer is also responsible for paying VAT in the most common case where the boat is privately imported. So the little bit of paper from the charter company is confirmation that they have accounted for VAT. The caveat to all this is that VAT status (however acquired) brings with it classification as "union goods" and free circulation throughout the EU, but as each state has its own local law that implements the EU Directive it is not surprising that local customs may want to check documents - even though the Directive clearly states that responsibility for VAT lies with the state where the transaction took place. When the UK was in the EU having evidence of status was important for those taking their boats to other states, particularly in the early days, but after a while it sunk in with other states that there was no need to check, but to accept that VAT on UK boats was generally of no concern to them. Now of course it is absolutely no concern as the UK is a separate customs area.

Not of course directly relevant to the OP but useful background to illustrate a common EU law problem of differing interpretations in local law.

 

[Irish Rover]

I read both, actually. You clearly didn’t understand my response, or are just refusing to acknowledge that other people know things you don’t. Either way, you're not worth arguing with, hopefully OP now has options they can work with.

A little knowledge is clearly very dangerous.