Registro Italiano Navale - Breaking News

[FishyInverness]

Smackdaddy, I fimd it a bit paradoxical that you are saying "all we have are Grant's statements that I am not prepared to believe at face value" (Not literally quoting you there, but it is what you're saying in your posts!)

YET, you and toad are prepared to state that RINA has a bribery problem,......because Grant told us....

Isn't that selectively deciding which of the same person's statements you want to think of as truth?

I do think that the whole situation was stated very clearly and doesn't call RINA into question at all.

A bribe was paid to facilitate something that, from RINA's point of view, was going to happen anyway. It's not a shocker or a condemnation of anyone other than the person who took money from someone else to do his job, but quicker..

 

[smackdaddy]

Smackdaddy, I fimd it a bit paradoxical that you are saying "all we have are Grant's statements that I am not prepared to believe at face value" (Not literally quoting you there, but it is what you're saying in your posts!)

YET, you and toad are prepared to state that RINA has a bribery problem,......because Grant told us....

Isn't that selectively deciding which of the same person's statements you want to think of as truth?

Absolutely right. It is a conflict. But anyone who uses Grant's statements as "proof" of anything in this whole Rocna affair is "selectively deciding which of the same person's statements you want to think of as truth".

According to the email he posted last night, he paid bribes to RINA and lied to a RINA official to his face. So what does that mean regarding the veracity of everything else he tells us in the forums? Is any of it true? Or is just the stuff that fits the crucify Rocna narrative true?

I'm saying I'm not fully believing any of it just because it was said. But nor am I summarily dismissing it as a lie. There's a lot of gray area here. I'm just trying to get to the facts.

I do think that the whole situation was stated very clearly and doesn't call RINA into question at all.

A bribe was paid to facilitate something that, from RINA's point of view, was going to happen anyway. It's not a shocker or a condemnation of anyone other than the person who took money from someone else to do his job, but quicker..

I certainly can't dissuade you from this view at this point. And that may be all it turns out to be. The only thing that stands in the way of that conclusion for me is the "fact" that RINA individuals were sacked and punished.

We'll see.

 

[Sybarite]

That's why I thought it needed a new thread. Apart from about 4 vocal forumites nobody's interested in Anchor squabbles and I doubt many read them even if they click on the link. In contrast RINA taking a bribe would have been big news in my view. I've not heard of "Rina" but my first impression from their web site was that I'd rather *expect* them to be taking bribes, so less of a story, maybe. (I could be wrong - for all I know they might be top dogs in the field in which case it's game on again!)

I understand that to register a boat in Italy it must first have a RINA inspection. Certainly the one I visited had its RINA certificate. Worrying though if the certification was obtained through payment?

 

[Sybarite]

We'll just have to be patient and see a) What Grant comes up with and b) if Rina have anything to say.

There is no way the RINA would respond to a query initiated on this forum.

IMHO.

 

[Sybarite]

No I havent. But having been in a Chinese hospital I can imagine the horros of the meat market.

Do they really eat mans best friend?

Never tried a sausage dog? Or a hot dog?

 

[estarzinger]

I understand that to register a boat in Italy it must first have a RINA inspection. Certainly the one I visited had its RINA certificate. Worrying though if the certification was obtained through payment?

No, only an Italian commercial vessel (such as a sailboat being used for charter) is required to have RINA. Non-commercial can have, but are not required to.

I was project manager on a vessel that went thru the RINA process and I can tell you the RINA folks were extremely professional. The owner and I put a ton of pressure on RINA on several issues and we jointly worked our way to satisfactory professional solutions. There was no way you could simply 'pay for a certificate'. This was in France with the RINA folks coming from Italy. That's not to say that people don't screw up and things don't slide thru the cracks and there may be bad apples, all more likely with remote employees in China.

To get a RINA certificate for a vessel, one of the many requirements is to show that your anchor is approved by any of several (ABS, LLOYDS, DNV, GL & RINA) outfits and is the 'proper' size. Quite a bit of other equipment is similarily required to come with approved certificates and you end of with a big folder of all the pieces of paper to show to and get checked off by the RINA inspector.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

YET, you and toad are prepared to state that RINA has a bribery problem

No I'm bloody not!

All I'm prepared to state is that one person on a forum has said that one manufacter has paid a bribe to people in Rina.

I doubt smackdaddy is saying any more than that. How could he?

 

[Rigger Mortice]

.....and RINA aren't going to reply to Smacky to announce to the world that they've had hundreds of problems with bribery over the last few years. He will achieve no more than idle speculation about if's and maybe's.
It's an investigation which is doomed to get no further than what we know already.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

.....and RINA aren't going to reply to Smacky to announce to the world that they've had hundreds of problems with bribery over the last few years. He will achieve no more than idle speculation about if's and maybe's. It's an investigation which is doomed to get no further than what we know already.

As Smackdaddy says, what's the harm in asking?

There are bits of Grant's story that could possibly be verified. If Grant really was investigated by New Zealand police for theft of five grand, maybe his arrest was in the papers. Maybe it actually got as far as a trial in which case we can confirm a lot of what Grant's said.

There's also the matter of the $5000 itself. Apparently someone has taken $5000 out of Rocna and spent it without getting receipts. It turns out it wasn't Grant who did that, he just handed the cash to Rina. I'd have thought whoever took the 5 grand out has some questions to answer & would be facing some kind of consequences from that. Maybe there's some record of that somewhere.

Grant's put his neck on the line to let us know about these issues. I think the least we can do is to invest a tiny amount of time in verifying his story and I'm dammed if I can see a downside to asking a few questions.

Incidently, anyone able to give me a link to/scan of Jonathan's YM story about Rocnagate?

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Smacky's E-mail to RINA certainly won't answer most of those questions. If you want to check out Grant's story then fire away but I'm prepared to bet that you won't find anything to substantially contradict what he has been telling us.

He's already made clear that it was Bumbury who gave him the money. In a small setup like Rocna it would have to be the boss; nobody else would have access to that kind of cash.

Ask away though.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

If you want to check out Grant's story then fire away but I'm prepared to bet that you won't find anything to substantially contradict what he has been telling us.

AFAIK in the past every time anyone's tried to verify anything Grant's said WRT Rocna he's turned out to be speaking the truth.

He's already made clear that it was Bumbury who gave him the money. In a small setup like Rocna it would have to be the boss; nobody else would have access to that kind of cash.

In which case he probably needs to explain to someone where that 5 grand went, even if it's only the NZ taxman. There might be a public record of that somewhere. Or maybe there isn't in which case no harm done.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

In which case he probably needs to explain to someone where that 5 grand went, even if it's only the NZ taxman. There might be a public record of that somewhere. Or maybe there isn't in which case no harm done.

AFAIK there's not a country on the planet where a company's detailed tax records with the tax man are open for public scrutiny.

Annual accounts should be available elsewhere for incorporated companies but AFAIK there's not a company on the planet which will put an item called "Bribery" in either it's published or unpublished accounts.

With companies run by people like Bambury even those accounts are frequently either filed late, or not at all. There may be more information when the insolvency is sorted out but it will be ages before that is available.

You could look on the NZ Companies House database. All that revealed, when I looked months ago, was the string of companies which the Bamburys have run, and shut down, over the years.

 

[Hoolie]

... ... ... With companies run by people like Bambury even those accounts are frequently either filed late, or not at all. There may be more information when the insolvency is sorted out but it will be ages before that is available. ... ... ...

Are Holdfast insolvent? The information posted here said they were being liquidated/wound up. Not quite the same thing

 

[Bosun Higgs]

You could look on the NZ Companies House database. All that revealed, when I looked months ago, .

I dont see that as normal behaviour for your average yottie with an interest in the subject. Its more like the actions a competitor might take. Or a policeman.

Why are you so deeply involved ? Do you have any past or present relationship with one of Rocna's competitors? Or with Rocna themselves? Or with Grant?

You do come over , to me at least, as very strident on the subject so you have me wondering.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

I dont see that as normal behaviour for your average yottie with an interest in the subject. Its more like the actions a competitor might take. Or a policeman.

Why are you so deeply involved ? Do you have any past or present relationship with one of Rocna's competitors? Or with Rocna themselves? Or with Grant?

You do come over , to me at least, as very strident on the subject so you have me wondering.

Bosun,

I've told you before; you are wrong.

You keep making exactly the same point. You have done so repeatedly on the other thread and you are now bringing your conspiracy theories onto this thread.

I've answered it to the best of my ability several times already and yet you come back again. Same questions. Different words but the same questions.

I've already answered. Several times. Read the earlier answers. You are wrong.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Are Holdfast insolvent? The information posted here said they were being liquidated/wound up. Not quite the same thing

You are right. I stand corrected, and thanks for pointing it out.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I dont see that as normal behaviour for your average yottie with an interest in the subject. Its more like the actions a competitor might take. Or a policeman.

Why are you so deeply involved ? Do you have any past or present relationship with one of Rocna's competitors? Or with Rocna themselves? Or with Grant?

You do come over , to me at least, as very strident on the subject so you have me wondering.

If he was a stooge for another anchor firm who have Rina certified products it might explain why he's keen to attack Rocna with any ammunition he can find, but when the bribery accusation was made he changed sides and became strongly opposed to anyone any attempt to substantiate the Rina/Rocna story.

I reckon there have been stooges in the anchor threads (by the dozen!), and I'm not a regualr reader so will have missed th majority of them!

FWIW I don't think Rigger is a stooge, but that's based on nothing more than gut feeling.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

FWIW I don't think Rigger is a stooge, but that's based on nothing more than gut feeling.

On that point your gut reaction is spot on.

On the other point you are miles off target. I have never disputed the bribery claims and, to be frank, I see no need to attempt to substantiate them. My opposition to the witch hunt that was being started to get to the bottom of a supposed story about corruption at RINA was that it had little to do with the Rocna issues.
An attempt was made to hijack the Rocna thread and turn it into a RINA corruption thread. That was what I was resisting; it was no "change of sides" as you put it.
Thankfully sense has prevailed and there is now one thread on Rocna and this one on RINA. Personally, I suspect that this one will turn out to be a damp squib and that there is no "big story" to be found about widespread corruption at RINA.....but if you and Smacky can prove otherwise then I'm sure it will make interesting reading.

On the Rocna story, I think that there is more to come. Time will tell.

 

[smackdaddy]

On the other point you are miles off target. I have never disputed the bribery claims and, to be frank, I see no need to attempt to substantiate them.

My opposition to the witch hunt that was being started to get to the bottom of a supposed story about corruption at RINA was that it had little to do with the Rocna issues.

An attempt was made to hijack the Rocna thread and turn it into a RINA corruption thread. That was what I was resisting; it was no "change of sides" as you put it.

Thankfully sense has prevailed and there is now one thread on Rocna and this one on RINA.


Personally, I suspect that this one will turn out to be a damp squib and that there is no "big story" to be found about widespread corruption at RINA.....but if you and Smacky can prove otherwise then I'm sure it will make interesting reading.

On the Rocna story, I think that there is more to come. Time will tell.

Sorry Rig, but speaking of miles off target...at this point the RINA issue, whether discussed here or in the Rocna thread, has everything to do with Rocna. You may not like that - but it's true.

No attempt was made to hijack anything. The issue came up in the Rocna thread after all. So, I see no problem discussing it in this thread or the other.

Furthermore, you seem to like to use the term "witch hunt". And that's cool and everything because I too like hyperbolic language. But I think it's a bit over the top at this point.

Either way...as you say, time will tell.

(PS - Toad, it does appear by the mushrooming number of views for this thread of yours - there is a bit of interest.)

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Either way...as you say, time will tell.

To get back on topic....when are you expecting a response from RINA?