Registration & Flag Issues - Again...

[EU_Cruiser]

Good Day All,

I know this subject has been covered in some respects but here goes anyway;

1. I am in the process of purchasing a 12m Dutch canal cruiser which is berthed in Woudsend, Friesland.
2. In terms of the Dutch regulations, it does not have to be registered with the RDW because of its length (<15m) and its maximum speed of <20kph. I have also been told that I cannot register the boat with the RDW even if I wanted to as it does not fall into their criteria for registration.
3. The Seller is a Swiss national and the boat is not registered.
5. What flag would I fly while in the Netherlands and while visiting other European countries (a regulatory reference would be appreciated)?
6. Would it be appropriate to fly a South African flag permanently and a visiting country courtesy flag?
7. I will have a VAT certificate, Bill of Sale, proof of payment etc. but no registration documentation (see 2 above). Is there anything preventing me from visiting any EU or UK country if I have an ICC + CNVI endorsement plus an appropriate VHF license?

Any assistance would be appreciated.

 

[petie]

I would have thought the simple thing to do would be to register the boat in your own country and subsequently, fly your National Ensign. As a UK national I would enter my craft on the UK Small Ships Register and Fly the Red Ensign.

 

[EU_Cruiser]

To register the boat here in SA I need to bring the boat here or fly a SA surveyor over to the boat in NL - due to the expense, that is not going to happen. This info is according to SAMSA (South African Maritime Safety Association). Simple is not always what it seems when you and the boat are in different hemispheres.

 

[Tranona]

To register the boat here in SA I need to bring the boat here or fly an SA surveyor over to the boat in NL - due to the expense, that is not going to happen. This info is according to SAMSA (South African Maritime Safety Association). Simple is not always what it seems when you and the boat are in different hemispheres.

You may also encounter difficulties using a non EU flagged boat in the EU. You might look at registering in Belgium as I understand they have an open register that does not have residency or citizen requirements. If you are buying through a broker in Holland they may well have some ideas.

 

[EU_Cruiser]

Thanks for the input.

Proper registration through the Belgium registry is limited to Belgium residents. I have misplaced the official link but investigated this one in depth too. The Dutch brokers say don't register - no-one does. To quote them (and I have full confidence in their professionalism):

I will try to explain to you what the rules are in Holland regarding boat registrations.

Any boat, slower than 20 km/h and length over all under 15 meters does not need a registration. The RDW will only register faster and bigger boats so registration with RDW is impossible.
Don't worry about this. The proof of ownership is the memorandum of agreement together with a bank transfer report that you paid this ammount.
To make it a bit more simple for non-Dutch residents we will provide a BILL OF SALE. This is an international accepted document in English) and well known by all port authorities and customs all over the world. As soon as the complete transaction is don the seller will sign this bill of sale in your name. It is basicely a document wich says: Paid and delivered.
For registration in all other countries a bill of sale is accepted.

But that still doesn't enlighten me on the flag issue.

 

[Portofino]

This is odd?
When we tour round the Med -enter Italy, and other French ports - like Corsica etc to stay in a marina - , all the Team ( usually a student in the office ) wants to see is the Reg document + insurance cert .
We are red ensign .
A few times we have been boarded by French Douanes while at anchor -agian only reg cert ,I have a file with BoS vat cert etc but nobodies interested up to now 9 years in the Med .
They expect you to fly your flag on the stern and a curtesy flag .

So I can,t see how you can float about inland passing through various EU states with no flag on the stern or reg cert without some jobs worth ( who is not student on a summer job ) making life difficult .
So why not just fly the SA flag ,I mean if the Swiss guy entered Belgium or Germany ,what did he fly ? Or fly even if it never left Dutch waters ?- = a Swiss flag?

I stress nobodies asked to see BoS or vat paid evidence .

 

[Stork_III]

Thanks for the input.

Proper registration through the Belgium registry is limited to Belgium residents. I have misplaced the official link but investigated this one in depth too. The Dutch brokers say don't register - no-one does. To quote them (and I have full confidence in their professionalism):



But that still doesn't enlighten me on the flag issue.

The UK set up A Small Ship's Register (SSR) some year past, specifically to satisfy the French who objected to unregistered UK boats visiting. Don't know how the many Dutch boats visting France each year, without registration, get on, but they seem to not have problems.The Italians don't register either,and I think France has an agreement that an Italian insurance serves the purpose

In UK any boat owned by a UK national and not registered elsewhere is deemed a UK vessel and entitled to fly the Red Ensign. Does SA have a similar rule?

 

[lpdsn]

You don't have to be a British Citizen or UK resident to get Part 1 registration (the register for proper ships). You need a representative I think, but that shouldn't be difficult if you know anyone living in the UK.

 

[EU_Cruiser]

I'm not sure "know[ing] someone in the UK" is a legal way to register? Source of info please.

 

[Stork_III]

I'm not sure "know[ing] someone in the UK" is a legal way to register? Source of info please.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-ho...chantships/mcga-ukshipregister-guidetoreg.htm

 

[Floating Preferably]

You don't have to be a British Citizen or UK resident to get Part 1 registration (the register for proper ships). You need a representative I think, but that shouldn't be difficult if you know anyone living in the UK.

I was under the impression that you did have to be a UK citizen to have a UK Part 1 Registered vessel, so I was surprised at your comment lpdsn. Are you able to qualify it? I am not trying to start an argument, but thought there were good legal reasons why 'foreign' residents should not have a UK Registered Vessel.

 

[Portofino]

You do need to be a uk citizen ( or EU person with a right to move freely ) to Reg a boat @ Cardiff either P 1 or SSR .
The Op allready has Sussed that -he,s SA citizen . so no can do !
His own SA reg authority require a survey for him to reg a boat of that size ( actually grater than 15 Hp ) that is not wholely in SA waters ,ie in foreign ( that's EU to them ) waters .
Unless he flys one in from SA ,to do the survey he cannot reg it with a SA flag = no reg doc -that's the issue ,
All he will have is a BoS from a Swiss guy to a SA guy .
Fine until he meets some job worth in the first country he enters from Holland ! -that is the problem .

BTW The Swiss guy in boaty law has EU equivalence ( freedom to move / work freely ) I live here and they have Cherry picked the bits of EU that suites them .All though iike the Nordic states not technically in the EU,but opt into certain things
The SA op is deffinitley not entitled to any benefits of belonging to an EU state .

So the next time you have a pint with Nige Ferrage - have bit of a think about the benifts of the EU in boaty terms

 

[EU_Cruiser]

Okay, so no can do the UK registration (even although my Grandfather served in the Metropolitan Police in the 1890's).

According to some sources, there are over 500,000 vessels in NL. Let's assume that 50% of these are <15m/<20kph and do not have to be registered (and there are not too many Hollanders I know who would pay for something if they did not have to). I cannot believe that there are 250,000 Dutch boats capable of cruising the waterways of EU but don't because of a fear of being impounded due to not being formally registered. No Dutch small, 'slow' vessel owners here?

 

[Portofino]

Okay, so no can do the UK registration (even although my Grandfather served in the Metropolitan Police in the 1890's).

According to some sources, there are over 500,000 vessels in NL. Let's assume that 50% of these are <15m/<20kph and do not have to be registered (and there are not too many Hollanders I know who would pay for something if they did not have to). I cannot believe that there are 250,000 Dutch boats capable of cruising the waterways of EU but don't because of a fear of being impounded due to not being formally registered. No Dutch small, 'slow' vessel owners here?

They are EU ( or have equivalence freedom of movement - Swiss ,Nordic, Monaco etc ) citizens ,
So the Dutch broker is correct they only need a BOS + passort if they roam into the rest of EU .
You are suppose to Reg your boat with SA authorities -and all that entails -to carry a reg doc -cos their will be no equivalence between EU and SA .

 

[EU_Cruiser]

I don't think the 'freedom of movement' issue has anything to do with not having registration papers when asked to produce these by a French/Belgium/German etc policeman. In theory, with my 12 month, multiple entry Schengen visa I have temporary freedom of movement just like any EU citizen. French/German/Belgium etc citizens are obliged to register their boats in permanently in their own country - this is why they carry registration papers. The Dutch don't so that is why they don't. I am not obliged to register my purchase in SA, nor am I obliged to register it in NL which is why I think the BoS will apply to me when travelling through other EU countries.

But what flag do I fly?

 

[Portofino]

To fly a SA flag ( outside SA waters) you need to reg it with them ? That's my understanding ,and same applies for any other outside thier waters eg Caymen islands .
Dutch Citizens fly thier flag at home and away in the EU with boats less than 15 M etc .They can not reg them the vessel as you say falls below the criteria but they are entitled to fly thier own country flag without reg when away .

You are not - reg with anybody -
Can you find a local guy to survey to SA standards and fax / e- mail it to your reg authorities ?

 

[EU_Cruiser]

Thanks Portofino,
I have emailed an acquaintance who is a marine surveyor and hopefully he will be able to help.

 

[PlanB]

We are UK Pt 1 registered and have been asked for our reg doc everwhere we have visited in France and Spain. You might want to look into registering in Gib, via a company, which costs a small amount to set up and maintain.

 

[Tranona]

I don't think the 'freedom of movement' issue has anything to do with not having registration papers when asked to produce these by a French/Belgium/German etc policeman. In theory, with my 12 month, multiple entry Schengen visa I have temporary freedom of movement just like any EU citizen. French/German/Belgium etc citizens are obliged to register their boats in permanently in their own country - this is why they carry registration papers. The Dutch don't so that is why they don't. I am not obliged to register my purchase in SA, nor am I obliged to register it in NL which is why I think the BoS will apply to me when travelling through other EU countries.

But what flag do I fly?

The freedom of movement of boats is nothing to do with the EU if you go to sea rather than use the inland waterways. You then come under international maritime rules which generally require the ship (including leisure boats) to have a national identity. When you enter other countries by sea you are expected to be able to prove the national identity of the ship (as well as the skipper, but they do not have to be the same). While some have put forward arguments that such proof does not have to be a formal national registration, in reality that is what is usually required. Some countries are very particular about it and France, for example can (and does) issue on the spot fines for non production of a registration document.

Inland waterways do not all have this requirement as they are governed by either national bodies or an overarching organisation like CEVNI. Having said that France still requires registration of any craft in its territory. So your advice is probably valid for Dutch waters, but think you will have difficulties in other European countries.

You may be able to register on the Isle of Man registry if you are a South African citizen as it is one of a list of prescribed countries whose citizens are eligible. www.gov.im/ded/shipregistry/ This is a Red Flag registry so you fly a special red ensign which is internationally accepted.

Hope this helps.

 

[EU_Cruiser]

Thank you PlanB and Tranona,

Very interesting indeed. I'm a bit wary about the Gibraltar company registration bit but suppose it might be an (expensive ZAR) option, The boat will only be used for inland waterways so the IoM option looks very interesting too - will investigate further tomorrow. Spoke to my BiL who is based in the Azores and he seems to think the boat can be registered on the Kadaster register. He will follow up and let me know.

Many thanks again for most helpful comments.