Refurbishment costs at 10years

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Christal

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I understand that safety related maintenance costs increase sharply after 10yrs. For example,

Seacocks replace.
Saildrive seal replace
Exhaust elbow replace
Remove accumulated antifoul.
Rigging replace

This is probably why they are for sale, as the owner sees these bills looming on the horizon.

Is it reasonable to take these refurbishment costs (say around £10k) off the asking price for a yacht at this age to cover these costs? The owner therefore avoids these costs directly and achieves a sale?
 
I'm not convinced that the work you describe will amount to £10k. Nevertheless, you should do all you can to justify to yourselfers and, maybe, the vendor a lower offer than the asking price. If you don't like the response then renegotiate or find another boat at the right price.
 
Christal said:
I understand that safety related maintenance costs increase sharply after 10yrs.
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Depends totally on how heavily the boat has been used and previous maintenance.

I bought my boat at ten years old and she is now fifteen years old. For the examples:

Seacocks replace - can't see why you'd automatically do this at 10 years. Mine are all original now and in perfect conditin, inspected annually.

Saildrive seal replace - this depends totally on the manufacturer's recommendations. Volvo penta recommend 7 year intervals. Buying a boat with a VP which had been properly maintained then means you should have 4 years' life in the seal when the boat is 10 years old. When I bought my boat the seal had been done just the year before (and twice in the previous five years, no idea why).

Exhaust elbow replace - no idea why this should be done at ten years either unless some manufacturers recommend it and surely this is more about engine hours. I don't think mine has ever been replaced (perhaps it should be!)

Remove accumulated antifoul- also never done that. Talked to yard about it last season, their opinion was that the AF was still in good paint-over condition after 15 seasons.

Rigging replace- YES to that one for peace of mind.

Is it reasonable to take these refurbishment costs (say around £10k) off the asking price for a yacht at this age to cover these costs?
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From the above, you'll see that the only one of your things I've had to do myself on a 15 year old boat is change the standing rigging, which cost a grand for a 30 footer and is not a massive-ticket item. I don't know what proportion of the ask you're looking at your assumed 10k is, but a) most of the things you ask about aren't necessarily going to need doing by a new owner and b) 10k is way over the cost for all of them, even on a biggish boat. So, no.

In terms of cost items Ed is more on the right track with looking at a discount if she will immediately need a new suit of sails, which is quite likely, but you will have a job convincing the owner and broker of this (because at least in part you may find it difficult to make a thorough inspection of them unless you can lay them out in a loft).

Remember you are buying a second hand boat not a new one. You should assume the ask reflects the boat as she is presented boat in hopefully sound and working condition, serviced appropriately during her lifetime, that sort of thing- not what that boat could be if she was specced up to the standards of something ten years newer for you to discount against.

All IMHO of course!
 
Boat is likely to be a Bavaria around 10yrs old, around 34ft, around £40k.

The work should normally be done around this age by the owner to keep the boat in a safe and reliable condition, as opposed to refurbishing for cosmetic reasons (upholstery, kitchen, heads etc). The surveyor would also raise concerns in this area.

The costs are based on the forum discussions for professional labour.

As EdWingField says, someone has to pay these costs. The seller would not see the benefit from the costs and is maybe their main reason for selling. We would see the benefits.
 
Christal said:
is it reasonable to take these refurbishment costs (say around £10k) off the asking price for a yacht at this age to cover these costs? The owner therefore avoids these costs directly and achieves a sale?
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No, you're looking at second hand boats which are normally priced to reflect condition. Every boat is different and very little may need doing. With many insurers, there's no need to replace the rig at 10 years. Take surveyors advice and adjust offer if any seriously expensive faults found.
 
Not sure I agree with the need to automatically replace any of that stuff after 10 years.

Maybe replace the forestay for peace of mind, otherwise I would leave it all alone.

It's like saying that on a car you have to replace the cambelt, steering and suspection joints, wheel bearings and exhaust after 4 years, whether it needs it or not. You wouldn't do that, would you?
 
Bobc said:
It's like saying that on a car you have to replace the cambelt, steering and suspection joints, wheel bearings and exhaust after 4 years, whether it needs it or not. You wouldn't do that, would you?
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Ignore the recommended cambelt interval at your peril!
 
Not many buyers around so you can try. Be careful how you word it as a smack in the mouth often offends -)
Remember the new cost of this boat now might be approaching 200k. The vendor has had to swallow maybe 4 to 5k depreciation per year over his ten year ownership not mentioning his running costs. So may not be impressed.
That, of course, is why you are buying used.
 
doug748 said:
Be careful how you word it as a smack in the mouth often offends -).
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Quite so. If I was selling a properly maintained 10 year old boat in commensurate condition and the OP offered 75% of the ask on account of 'safety issues' like wanting to strip the antifouling, I would conclude that he's a tyre kicker for sure. Except in strained circumstances a well found and honest boat is never subject to as extreme a buyers market as that.

And he's talking about ten year old ?bav 34 at 40k which is not overpriced to start with.
 
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£40k for a 2006 34foot Bavaria is already a good price and suggests that some work is needed. Trying to knock off another £10k is wishful thinking and trying to justify it based on overestimated costs just marks the offer as a tyre-kicker to be avoided.
 
I contacted my insurers after ten years about the standing rigging and was told that they were happy for twenty years. I had it checked anyway and have relaxed in the knowledge that rigging is supposed to be most likely to fail in its first year. Having done 17 seasons, many of the items have been dealt with, including gaiter, exhaust elbow, water pump, sails and antifouling, so anyone whingeing about safety if I choose to sell is likely to get short shrift. Buying secondhand is always likely to lead to expenses, which is why the prices reflect that.
 
Christal said:
Is it reasonable to take these refurbishment costs (say around £10k) off the asking price for a yacht at this age to cover these costs? The owner therefore avoids these costs directly and achieves a sale?
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No. It would have been factored in when arriving at the sale price.
 
Baddox said:
£40k for a 2006 34foot Bavaria is already a good price and suggests that some work is needed. Trying to knock off another £10k is wishful thinking and trying to justify it based on overestimated costs just marks the offer as a tyre-kicker to be avoided.
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My boat is currently on the market at what I consider to be a fair price given her age, condition etc. Part of that is the fact that the sails are good but only some are new, the rigging is 2 years old, the engine is original but working and maintained etc. Whilst you could go and buy new laminates, new engine, new electronics etc you would get the benefit of an improved boat.

If someone came out with a stupid offer taking £5k - £10k off the asking price just to replace that working equipment I woud not treat them seriously. With a sensible offer it would be a case of negotiating - with a tyre kicker it's a straight no and wait for a sensible offer.

As a buyer, it's worth remembering that not all sellers will need to sell ( or be in a hurry to sell) and if you like their boat you may well want them to do more than a perfunctory handover if you buy it. So treat people as you would want them to treat you and they may repay that when you complete on the purchase.
 
Christal said:
Boat is likely to be a Bavaria around 10yrs old, around 34ft, around £40k.

The work should normally be done around this age by the owner to keep the boat in a safe and reliable condition, as opposed to refurbishing for cosmetic reasons (upholstery, kitchen, heads etc). The surveyor would also raise concerns in this area.

The costs are based on the forum discussions for professional labour.

As EdWingField says, someone has to pay these costs. The seller would not see the benefit from the costs and is maybe their main reason for selling. We would see the benefits.
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You are buying a 10 year old used boat at a price that is approx 1/3 of a new one. Why would you expect it to be in as new condition? The price reflects exactly what it is. Of course you will have to pay to change some of these things over time.

As it happens I have recently sold a slightly older Bavaria for a similar price that was in usable condition and nothing significant required immediate replacement. However the new owner had a budget greater than the cost of the boat for the upgrades and replacements he wanted as he intended keeping the boat for a long time.

That is the normal approach - it is unreasonable to expect the price you pay to be the end of your expenditure. You assess the boat on its value to you in the condition it is in and have a budget to bring it up to what you would like it to be.
 
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