Reef points...why?

[Deleted member 36384]

Roller reefing on a dinghy is a piece of cake and far easier than jiffy reefing on dinghy, however it does have to be an aft mainsheet from the end of the boom as it cant be done with a centre mainsheet.

 

[Daydream believer]

And a good reason for not using them With a bucket under the goose neck it's a great way to get some fresh water midocean when a squall comes over.

Except that when the boat heels the water runs out at the clew

 

[Daydream believer]

Roller reefing on a dinghy is a piece of cake and far easier than jiffy reefing on dinghy, however it does have to be an aft mainsheet from the end of the boom as it cant be done with a centre mainsheet.

Use a boom claw

 

[Daydream believer]

Whoever told you that the outhaul is seldom used needs to be ignored. It is a crucial sail control along with the kicker and cunningham.

General rules - Flatten the sail off for going upwind (outhaul on) and ease it off for more power for offwind. Same with the kicker and cunningham - use your leech telltales to adjust the kicker correctly, and use the cunningham to further depower the sail when you need it. The cunningham moves the maximum draft point of the sail forwards and opens the leech when you wind it on.
I know you're not racing or anything but it's worth knowing..... At the very least you can quickly depower the sail if you ever need to.

I do not know about Dan's Osprey but on my Phantom the forestay is adjustable as well so tightening it puts tension on the shrouds which push the spreaders thus bending the mast forward. Thus flattening the main a lot
One soon gets left behind in a race fleet if one does not know how to use all the sail controls andunderstand what they are meant to do

 

[TSB240]

I sailed a Scorpion during the years that the raking rig was developed.

It meant sacking your crew who looked like a honey monster and finding a lithe young lady who weighed at least half of the honey monster.

Raking the rig back and flattening the main with cunningham , kicker and flattening reef (single line additional reefing point 6 -8 inches above clew) allowed us to continue sailing in very much stronger winds than were possible before this change.

 

[Greenheart]

One soon gets left behind in a race fleet if one does not know how to use all the sail controls and understand what they are meant to do

That's a very excellent point, and explains my only regret about not having an atom of interest in the racing scene.

I'll admit to some subtle enjoyment while observing a 30' sloop sailing the way I was going yesterday...she was under full sail, I had the reef in, and tack on tack, I left her for dead.

My understanding of mast-bend is virtually nil...if the forestay and shrouds aren't floppy before I launch, I'm usually content. I reckon it'd have to be blowing a bit before it matters.

The Osprey is an even odder choice of boat for me to singlehand, now I've lost two stone...it's hard to believe Ian Proctor initially intended her to have a crew of three men...

...were men especially emaciated in the post-war years? Anyway, with only about 65kg hiking on the rail, (not on the wire, yet) I'm very glad to be able to halve the mainsail's area.

Raking the rig back and flattening the main with cunningham , kicker and flattening reef (single line additional reefing point 6 -8 inches above clew) allowed us to continue sailing in very much stronger winds than were possible before this change.

Thanks for that TSB, I'll look closely at mast-rake. :encouragement:

 

[Daydream believer]

Dan
I apreciate that you, like many other, are not interested in racing.i was not advocating that you should.
The point is that the fun of sailing for many, well me at least!, is getting the best out of the boat. You cannot deny that you unwittingly want this because you have already mentioned( whilst denying racing) leaving another boat for dead
It is worth studying the racing scene sometimes because most experienced racers have figured out ways to sail faster, easier. Sail trim being a skill that will also benefit the non racer in some way, hence my comments. I was certainly not trying to influence you

 

[Daydream believer]

Raking the rig back and flattening the main with cunningham , kicker and flattening reef (single line additional reefing point 6 -8 inches above clew) allowed us to continue sailing in very much stronger winds than were possible before this change.

How did you rake the rig back & why.
Was it to make the boat balance differently & point higher?
Did you just slacken the forestay?. It seems to me that doing so would allow the mast to stay straight so would just leave a full curve. The scorpion mast is a bit of a lump so it may have been difficult to produce pre bend.Or did you re-tension the shrouds as well?

 

[TSB240]

How did you rake the rig back

The first boat to use it used a hydraulics! A certain Mike Lennon from Hyde Sails! It was rapidly banned because of the costs involved. Before then rig rake had been adjustable and this was achieved with shroud levers or Quadrant levers for off wind. The current solution is multi purchase wire on pulleys on each shroud and jib with a stuff luff. One line controls the whole mast rake with rig tension is at preset

& why.
At this time the hull design was exploited within the one design rules by Morrison and Turner to allow the boat to plane to windward. The raking rig allowed the centre of effort to be moved aft in line with a little less centreboard and the boat could be easily driven on the plane to windward. It also has the effect of opening up the slot of a low overlap jib with the main.The flattener on the main whilst marginally reduced sail area also had the effect of lifting the boom up so that the tail end didn't clash with the side decks or the helm when tacking!

Was it to make the boat balance differently Yes

& point higher? No but VMG was much much better!

Did you just slacken the forestay?. No Forestay was effectively an end stop for maximum rake it was stuffed in the luff of the jib!

It seems to me that doing so would allow the mast to stay straight so would just leave a full curve.
No pre-bend could be maintained or increased with rig tension independent of rake.

The scorpion mast is a bit of a lump
Mine wasn't it was a kappa section which needed external bracing to stop it inverting with the spinnaker pole pressure on a three sail reach (lowers were used until banned)

so it may have been difficult to produce pre bend. The Opposite!

Or did you re-tension the shrouds as well? Yes

 

[Greenheart]

Cripes! Sounds technical. I'm sorry this thread is drifting quite a bit...but I daresay we've covered reef-points now.

I infer that the whole point of mast rake, is to maintain rig-balance over the centreboard, which in its slightly raised position, reduces the boat's inclination to heel.

I hope that's right? I might give it a try. But I've looked at figures on mast rake, ie the distance from masthead to the transom...and I was surprised that the fully-raked position for the Osprey was very similar to the fully upright position - only a couple of inches difference. How much difference can that make? A fully-raked mast on the Flying Dutchman has an almost drunken-looking angle to it...why should such an extreme rake suit the FD, but not another big dinghy?

Mr Daydream, I certainly wasn't disrespecting racers, whose expertise is exhibited par excellence, almost every Sunday at my club...

...I really envy their skill, but I don't share any interest in the contest. I'm not sure my mild enjoyment of going faster than another boat which wasn't competing, counts!

Still, I do have nodding acquaintances at the club, who'll doubtless be ready to advise if I ask. My oars, lazyjacks, masthead-float, plus the Havana-smoke which drifts downwind from my boat on calm days, may have persuaded them that I'm not interested in performance-improving details...but in small ways, I am.

 

[Daydream believer]

As a twice hornet sailor i am surprised by the advances of the class which , as far as i am aware, have not been transfered to the Scorpions bigger brother

 

[GHA]

Except that when the boat heels the water runs out at the clew

The boat don"t heel downwind
Rolls a bit but still lots of lovely fresh water.

T

 

[Daydream believer]

The boat don"t heel downwind
Rolls a bit but still lots of lovely fresh water.

T

So you only sail down wind when its raining. Hope that is the way you want to go!

 

[GHA]

So you only sail down wind when its raining. Hope that is the way you want to go!

You missed one important word - "midocean"
Blue water passages tend to be downwind, and a squall coming over can be a bonus - get naked with shampoo ready and a bucket under the gooseneck

 

[mjcoon]

... and a squall coming over can be a bonus - get naked with shampoo ready and a bucket under the gooseneck

But don't forget to keep your harness on, considering the rolling motion and slippery shampoo... (Prohibit photos!)

Mike.

 

[Ruffles]

2) Income for sailmakers - when someone unreefs and releases tack and clew and all bar one of the reef tie points, then pulls hard on the halliard.

I did just that in the early hours on someone else's boat many, many years ago. Tore the main. Never used them since.
I guess you could use a loop of shock cord and a plastic hook on a long passage. But life is too short.