Red Flare reporting - what procedure should I have followed?

mikemanor said:
You can then say in textbook fashion:
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Yes but which textbook? You'll notice that the words you cite differ from those that channelyacht uses: channelyacht follows station identification with "Mayday Relay". You follow it with "Mayday received from Boat name, Callsign, MMSI". The phrase I found most cited (possibly also in the RYA textbook though I don't have it to hand) and I'd use is "Mayday <name/callsign/mmsi of vessel in distress>". Where a red flare was seen and no station id of the vessel in distress known I'd wing it much as prv said ("<type of flare seen> sighted..."). I've variously seen web sites mentioning any of the above and also suggesting wrapping the relayed message in "Message received from:" and "Message ends". Yes it all works and conveys the same information so is all "good" but what is canonical and what makes it canonical? My contention is (as it was before) that the mayday relay process is not as fully defined for rote-learning as mayday/pan-pan. Once again of course, all the above "works".

You didn't mention anything about intermediate relaying station. Surely that info *could* in some circumstances be critical (e.g. coastguard with more powerful transmitter attempts to contact intermediate station for info on their position if position of vessel in distress is missing). Where is it written down were the relaying station(s) should be mentioned?
 
Rhoda Rose said:
I was off of the Buxey Sands and heard that relay. Not wishing to break the non disclosure rule, but the OP sounded very correct and seamanlike. Well done. I hope you are around should I ever let off a red flare. :-)
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The non-disclosure rule applies to any messages of which you are not the intended recipient. Mayday and Mayday Relay messages are directed at all stations, so you were an intended recipient. (There might, however, be other good reasons in some cases for not disseminating the details of a distress call.)
 
Rhoda Rose said:
I was off of the Buxey Sands and heard that relay. Not wishing to break the non disclosure rule, but the OP sounded very correct and seamanlike. Well done. I hope you are around should I ever let off a red flare. :-)
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Thanks Rhoda Rose, i didn't feel that comfortable at the start, but I think my confidence grew once I had made the initial call. The lady at Dover CG certainly knew her stuff and and was very easy to work with, prompting me when necessary. I had heard you on the radio earlier as we were leaving the Colne on Sunday morning and wondered about saying hello.

Oldbilbo, I'm not sure that I would rather have done everything differently. The original purpose of this post was, like others have said, I can't remember this type of scenario being covered on my RYA course and I didn't feel as though I had followed the correct protocol. Channelyacht has cleared that up. I wasn't that far off, I should have given a bit more detail in my initial message. However, my thought at the time was to attract the attention of the CG or anyone else nearby that maybe able to assist before passing the details. I have heard distress and urgency messages in the past where I haven't had time to grab a pencil and paper to record the position, so not really sure if I'm near enough to assist.
 
laika said:
Yes but which textbook?
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The GMDSS procedures are agreed on an international basis through the ITU. The definitive calls are published here:
life.itu.int/radioclub/rr/chapt-7.pdf
The Mayday Relay procedure is at para 32.19E.

The procedure taught on RYA SRC courses is in the RYA G22 VHF Radio (inc GMDSS) book at page 26. Even this differs very slightly from the ITU definitive publication in that the ITU mandates ALL STATIONS X 3 after MAYDAY RELAY x 3 (With a DSC Class D radio you will have first sent an all ships urgency alert)

In terms of rote learning for a Mayday Relay we could perhaps say

Mayday Relay x 3
All Stations x 3 (according to ITU doc)
My boat name x 3
Callsign
MMSI

Then read out the Mayday message that you wrote down from the other boat which should be along the lines of.
Mayday boat name (would be unidentified vessel in the red flare scenario)
Call Sign
MMSI
Position
Nature of Distress
Assistance Required
Additional Info
Over

There is no definitive procedure for relaying a relay. You just relay the original Mayday message. I agree that once you start talking to the coastguard then the presence of other vessels closer to the scene becomes important information.

In all of this of course, the aim is to end up talking to someone who will understand the nature of the distress and take action to bring assistance to the vessel in distress.
 
laika said:
Where is it written down were the relaying station(s) should be mentioned?
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You do that when you open the Bx - e.g.

Mayday Relay x 3
This is (your station name) x 3

After that, from a CG viewpoint, the more people stick to the MIPNANOO format the happier I am. We'll ask you anything else we need.

As with a distress from your own boat, don't delay the message because you think it might not be in the right order. Get the proword out and let the CG op handle the rest.
 
FulmarJeddo said:
I have heard distress and urgency messages in the past where I haven't had time to grab a pencil and paper to record the position, so not really sure if I'm near enough to assist.
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Don't assume signal strength always means distance, it could be the dying sqwuak of a radio 400 yards away from you.

If you hear something even if you can't write it down, and there is no reply, relay it - or at least raise it with a shore station. We had one a couple of years ago in Cornwall which was a kayaker in the water, in the cove he was in we couldn't get comms, and a passing yacht heard the faintest call. At least the yacht's position gave us a rough idea, and we could work back from there.
 
mikemanor said:
The GMDSS procedures are agreed on an international basis through the ITU. The definitive calls are published here:
life.itu.int/radioclub/rr/chapt-7.pdf
The Mayday Relay procedure is at para 32.19E.

The procedure taught on RYA SRC courses is in the RYA G22 VHF Radio (inc GMDSS) book at page 26.
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Thanks for the ITU reference. So we have *4* different versions in this thread then :-). What channel yacht quoted, what you quoted, I don't have G22 to hand but ISTR that's what my concept was based on, and the ITU doc you quote which:
- Has "ALL STATIONS" 3 times between MAYDAY RELAY and relaying station id
- Doesn't have "MAYDAY RELAY" (channelyacht), "MAYDAY <station in distress>" (me) or "MAYDAY RECEIVED FROM..." (you), just "<station in distress>"
- Has the MMSI of the relaying station *After* the id of the station in distress rather than as part of the relaying station identification.

If that ITU doc is canonical we're all doing it wrong :-)
 
FulmarJeddo said:
Thanks Rhoda Rose, i didn't feel that comfortable at the start, but I think my confidence grew once I had made the initial call. The lady at Dover CG certainly knew her stuff and and was very easy to work with, prompting me when necessary.
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Concern over VHF best practice should not be an impediment to getting involved where the situation indicates. The marine pros often drop into informal VHF dialogue that does not conform to an RYA textbook.

I rarely use the VHF but played a tangential role in a West Country PanPan last week using my own VHF patois. A Moboer issued a PanPan at 6pm after an engine breakdown having left Torquay and motored most of the day while bound for Dartmouth. After 15 minutes the CoastGuard could not coax any reliable indication of position from the Mobo with speculation over his position ranging around Start Point with a 50 mile margin of uncertainty. My position was 3 miles SW of Dodman Point and I could hear the Mobo side of a VHF conversation very clearly and so decided to inform the CG that I thought the PanPan vessel's position was much further west than current speculation. The CG thanked me for my observation adding that his own antenna receptions confirmed by observation.

Five minutes before getting involved I had already deduced the lost Mobo was within 5 miles of the Fowey daymark as no other "lighthouse" that the Mobo skipper claimed he could see fitted with the crystal clear VHF reception. I should have been a bit more forthright with the CG during my VHF contribution but deferred to his pro status. All ended well, my VHF info prompted another yacht near Fowey to report a possible sighting of the lost Mobo which was soon confirmed.

The incident undermined the claim here by some that closure of local CG stations leads to a critical loss of local knowledge. I had not sailed down the Cornish coast since 2008 and yet with a single VHF antenna, a working brain and no local knowledge, it took me 5 minutes to deduce a position for the lost Mobo the local Falmouth CG could not establish in 15 minutes.
 
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mikemanor said:
No it isn't. It is covered in detail on the SRC course. In the classroom environment my students always practise Mayday Relays. In fact this very "Red Flare" scenario is one of the questions in the written paper question bank.
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It sounds like the RYA updated their training course 10 years ago when I first raised this complaint. Anyhow this thread and others over the years indicate that the RYA is still failing to deliver on this point despite their intention and your exemplary tuition standards.
 
chanelyacht said:
Don't assume signal strength always means distance, it could be the dying sqwuak of a radio 400 yards away from you.

If you hear something even if you can't write it down, and there is no reply, relay it - or at least raise it with a shore station. We had one a couple of years ago in Cornwall which was a kayaker in the water, in the cove he was in we couldn't get comms, and a passing yacht heard the faintest call. At least the yacht's position gave us a rough idea, and we could work back from there.
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Interesting observation; it's great to have someone on the forum able to bridge the textbook to the practical realities of identifying and tasking a potential SAR.

The core-message seems to be vigilance, discipline, focused thinking and if in doubt, Report! All sensible stuff which fully vindicates the actions of the OP who appears to have nailed all of the important bits.
 
chanelyacht said:
Don't assume signal strength always means distance, it could be the dying sqwuak of a radio 400 yards away from you.
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Or just a crap radio generally :)

About halfway between Jersey and Guernsey earlier this summer, in fog, I heard a PanPan call from a 50-foot mobo whose fancy swivelling drive legs had both been put out of action by some kind of hydraulic failure. Despite him being much nearer to Guernsey than me, Guernsey Coastguard couldn't hear him at all and I had to relay.

We offered to attempt a tow, but given the size difference and the fact that he wasn't in any immediate danger, he preferred to wait for another large mobo. A Nelson-esque charter boat put out of Sark specially - presumably with a salvage award in mind :)

Anyway, as we got closer to his position (initially he was between us and Guernsey) we diverted a bit from our track to make visual contact (vis about half a mile at that point). A very smart, brand-new-looking motor boat, and yet his radio couldn't reach five miles to a Coastguard antenna. We also discovered that he was transmitting AIS, which we'd been unable to detect until very close.

Presumably a very poor antenna installation, either from the yard or due to damage at some point. Going by radar and AIS there were several other vessels in the area, but nobody else responded or attempted to relay (and there was time, I didn't jump in with mine immediately). Perhaps we were the only ones who heard him? Perhaps he's lucky we did?

Pete
 
Interesting that the ITU document states that the MMSI is only given in the verbal message if the initial distress alert is sent by DSC.
 
Giblets said:
Interesting that the ITU document states that the MMSI is only given in the verbal message if the initial distress alert is sent by DSC.
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Yes, because the purpose of sending the MMSI is to confirm that the Voice call you are now hearing and the DSC Alert that you got previously relate to the same vessel ie they are not 2 separate incidents at the same time. The DSC alert only contains MMSI for identification - it does not contain boat name for instance. (It does also contain position and distress designation of course)
 
laika said:
Perhaps then you include more than jonjo5's and my trainer did*. I recall it being mentioned but not in detail. There was definitely nothing on DSC mayday relay (even though I did a DSC course, albeit before DSC sets were ubiquitous).
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We spent as much time on Mayday Relay as Mayday about 14 years ago when I did mine. It was in the syllabus then. I think pre DSC days it was touched on but not with such relevance, because a voice call could unpick the information. But the risk in the OPs case could have been his mate who first tried to relay the flare might have hit Red Button but not established Voice contact, then he does the same and perhaps the "distress" vessel also. Perhaps then some of the others would have also joined in the fun with DSC alerts going all over the place. So it became more important to understand to use Urgency not Distress on a Class D set. We specifically practices a Mayday Relay from a DSC Distress. Part of the point being to capture the info in-case it needed to be relayed. Then we also were told - "you've just seen a flare 1 mile that way" <points finger> - practice a call for it.

We didn't practice a relay of a relay.

I'm not sure the exact detail of the words matter, I've never seen a MAIB report that said the calling vessel gave his MMSI before his name and it should be the other way round or any such detail. There may be a "better" way to list the info (i.e. getting a position in before the nature of the distress incase you loose contact) but reality is 99% of the time the absolute basics are enough and the CG will extract the info they want.

BUT a relay of a relay would presumable take the format:

Mayday Relay Mayday Relay Mayday Relay
This is Yacht Charlie, Yacht Charlie, Yacht Charlie
Mayday Relay
Mayday Relay received from Motor Vessel Bravo at 20:09 UTC reporting receiving a Mayday from Fishing Vessel Alpha at 20:03 UTC. Fishing Vessel Alpha is in position XYZ, and is reporting Distress ABC. Original Message Ends.
Motor Vessel Bravo report they are proceeding to the scene with best speed. Relay Ends.
This is Yacht Charlie, also proceeding to scene.
Over.

You could stack that as many layers deep as necessary.

While it is rare in UK waters to need to relay, cliffs are a common cause of a problem. You could well have a kayaker at the base of a cliff who can talk to a nearby RIB but no-one else as on a H/H radio. RIB may not be able to reach the CG mast but may reach you. So its not impossible.
 
5 years ago on RYA course, we did as much on relay as mayday. Our instructor also made it clear that in emergency, saying somthing is better than not responding due to a fear of breaching protocol. Do it right if you can, or if it's an emergency, j f d I.
 
Interesting to see what others did on their VHF course compared to mine

Did mine seven years ago and we hardly touched on Mayday Relay at all
 
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