Red ensign: where it works without courtesy flag?

[Gedimin]

Struggling to find information about the area that is considered suitable to fly red ensign without the necessity of a local courtesy flag.
Obviously, in Britsh waters, around Channel Islands and Gibraltar are quite clear - no local courtesy is required for a British vessel. But what about Overseas territories?

Basically, what I'm asking is if Red Ensign territory list is where British vessel does not need to fly a local courtesy flag (e.g. British vessel navigating Aguilla, Bermuda or Turks and Caicos does not need to fly a local national flag as courtesy). Some might argue that one can display their courtesy and still fly a local flag, but do we have to?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Why look for opportunities NOT to fly a courtesy flag. Lots of places take flying a courtesy flag very seriously. If you want to make trouble for yourself and encourage local officialdom to make your life difficult simply don’t bother to ensure the correct ensigns and courtesy flags are flying.

It’s not expensive and it’s not difficult.

If you want an easy life, fly the correct flags, be polite and grit your teeth and keep smiling whatever happens.

 

[Gedimin]

Why look for opportunities NOT to fly a courtesy flag. Lots of places take flying a courtesy flag very seriously. If you want to make trouble for yourself and encourage local officialdom to make your life difficult simply don’t bother to ensure the correct ensigns and courtesy flags are flying.

It’s not expensive and it’s not difficult.

If you want an easy life, fly the correct flags, be polite and grit your teeth and keep smiling whatever happens.

I am flying the correct flags when I am required to do so, not just to please somebody. Lots of people go weird and fly all sorts of bizarre local flags (like Canary islands or Brittany) where they are required just to fly a national courtesy flag. Some would fly Scottish flag or Cornwall when sailing in respective area. But they are not following rules, they are doing it for fun. I only intend to follow the rules.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I am flying the correct flags when I am required to do so, not just to please somebody. Lots of people go weird and fly all sorts of bizarre local flags (like Canary islands or Brittany) where they are required just to fly a national courtesy flag. Some would fly Scottish flag or Cornwall when sailing in respective area. But they are not following rules, they are doing it for fun. I only intend to follow the rules.

In that case I’m not sure what point you’re making. There’s no harm in pleasing people. We’ll be in the Turks & Caicos next season and we already have the correct courtesy flag ready to fly.

We fly a French flag over a Brittany flag when we’re in Brittany. It’s not strictly necessary but it’s appreciated. In the same way I’ll fly a saltire as a courtesy flag in Scotland. Not necessary but much appreciated by many locals.

(Cornish and Scottish Ensigns have no legal standing and whilst I appreciate the strength of feeling of some people over their bit of the UK, I suggest they don’t try arguing their corner with some official from a second or third world country. They WILL come off worse and regret it.)

 

[Gedimin]

Not making a point and zero will to argue about it. Just hoping that someone can point me towards official regulations on this. Not interested in what is nice to fly, only need to know what I must fly. I visit a lot of new countries every year, and if I can avoid some of the unnecessary courtesy flags because they legally accept just Red Ensign on my stern - I will.

 

[sarabande]

What's " unnecessary" about courtesy flags ?

By not displaying one , as a courtesy, you can easily upset officialdom and cost yourself much more than the price of a flag you can sell as you depart if you wish.

It could also upset the
authorities against the next British boat to arrive, and you will almost certainly draw (possibly unwanted) attention to yourself.

Worth listening to the advice of that very experienced sea dog JM.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Not making a point and zero will to argue about it. Just hoping that someone can point me towards official regulations on this. Not interested in what is nice to fly, only need to know what I must fly. I visit a lot of new countries every year, and if I can avoid some of the unnecessary courtesy flags because they legally accept just Red Ensign on my stern - I will.

If the cost of the courtesy flag is seriously impacting on your cruising budget there’s something not quite right with things IMHO.

However if you’re seriously that strapped for cash, get an old singer sewing machine with a crank handle (often available free or almost free) and scrounge a range of coloured cloths from and make your own courtesy flag for the next country while on passage. Don’t laugh, I’ve heard it’s been done.

Or are you trolling?

Edit;

There’s no international law on courtesy flags. but some countries have local laws that MUST be adhered to.

Maritime flag etiquette on merchant ships | Britannia P&I

Although it says merchant ships, the same applies to yachts.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

All a part of the fun of sailing, to us. It’s a tradition bound pastime. You don’t have to fly an ensign in home waters, but we never sail without one. Mrs C is up on the coachroof checking the halyard as soon as we clear the mid channel shipping lanes, such is her eagerness to fly a French courtesy flag.

We have another dilemma here, we’d normally wear a blue ensign, which necessitates flying a club burgee above any other flag….

 

[ylop]

Not making a point and zero will to argue about it. Just hoping that someone can point me towards official regulations on this. Not interested in what is nice to fly, only need to know what I must fly. I visit a lot of new countries every year, and if I can avoid some of the unnecessary courtesy flags because they legally accept just Red Ensign on my stern - I will.

Most of flag etiquette is entirely unlegislated in many counties. It is etiquette not law. It is a courtesy not a regulation. Dress codes, playing music, peeing off the side of the boat, making big waves through moorings, how/where you tie your dinghy, rafting alongside people, etc… usually all etiquette and courtesy rather than regulations unless it’s actually become so problematic they’ve had to introduce a law or the culture there likes to stipulate every detail.

I’m not a fan of flag etiquette in general, but in life courtesy seems a reasonable thing to do.

 

[Boathook]

I put up courtesy flags in the Channel Islands. I try and get a discount from the HM's for the mooring but haven't succeeded yet.
Also, quite a few years ago had a discussion with French custom officer as to whether the Normandy flag should be above the French one. He thought so living in Normandy but his boss was from elsewhere !
I also have the Brittany flag ....

 

[Little Tern]

Struggling to find information about the area that is considered suitable to fly red ensign without the necessity of a local courtesy flag.

I think the key is in the words "is considered". By whom?
By the law of the local area? You'd better check the local law.
By local authorities? The local harbour master, or police, or naval officer, may have expectations that aren't codified in law.
By other boatowners and businesses in the area? They may regard a courtesy ensign as necessary to show courtesy, and might look on the absence as rudeness. Or they might not.

I will also gently suggest that sometimes border officials looking for illicit trade (drugs, migrants etc) might use the absence of the usual courtesy flag as a risk factor, suggesting that the boat isn't being navigated by an experienced seaman.

I can understand not wanting to get drawn into the frippery of regional ensigns (though I personally like them, and will use them when I feel there is a strong regional identity). But I would regard deliberately avoiding a national courtesy ensign as a discourtesy that could lead to trouble.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Most of flag etiquette is entirely unlegislated in many counties. It is etiquette not law. It is a courtesy not a regulation. Dress codes, playing music, peeing off the side of the boat, making big waves through moorings, how/where you tie your dinghy, rafting alongside people, etc… usually all etiquette and courtesy rather than regulations unless it’s actually become so problematic they’ve had to introduce a law or the culture there likes to stipulate every detail.

I’m not a fan of flag etiquette in general, but in life courtesy seems a reasonable thing to do.

Whilst that’s all true one ought to remember that flag etiquette is very much expected & enforced in some countries too.

Anecdotally, the smaller and less developed the country, the more the seemingly petty regulations etc.

 

[dunedin]

Not making a point and zero will to argue about it. Just hoping that someone can point me towards official regulations on this. Not interested in what is nice to fly, only need to know what I must fly. I visit a lot of new countries every year, and if I can avoid some of the unnecessary courtesy flags because they legally accept just Red Ensign on my stern - I will.

I think you are looking through the wrong end of the telescope. Forget “rules” and penny pinching but instead perhaps
- enjoy showing courtesy to locals wherever you visit - kindness and courtesy tends to get repaid
- treat your collection of courtesy flags as souvenirs and mementos of a great trip.

When a visitor in somebody else’s country you should be empathetic and courteous. If not don’t go?

 

[[70521]]

Struggling to find information about the area that is considered suitable to fly red ensign without the necessity of a local courtesy flag.
Obviously, in Britsh waters, around Channel Islands and Gibraltar are quite clear - no local courtesy is required for a British vessel. But what about Overseas territories?

Gosh, I take great pleasure in flying a courtesy flag as it shows I respect the rules of where I am the fact I am celebrating arriving there.

I find one of these on the port side in France extremely useful at it indicates we have an auld alliance.

 

[ylop]

Whilst that’s all true one ought to remember that flag etiquettes is very much expected & enforced in some countries too.

Anecdotally, the smaller and less developed the country, the more the seemingly petty regulations etc.

The point I was hoping to make was they may not even be regulations just the local official’s interpretation/expectation but that may lead to other headaches, extra thorough checks, having to wait longer etc. And I think you are probably right tolerance for not knowing the exact local custom is much higher in large places with lots of visitors etc.

 

[john_morris_uk]

The point I was hoping to make was they may not even be regulations just the local official’s interpretation/expectation but that may lead to other headaches, extra thorough checks, having to wait longer etc. And I think you are probably right tolerance for not knowing the exact local custom is much higher in large places with lots of visitors etc.

All good. I wasn’t really trying to disagree with you, but trying to emphasise that one ignores courtesies at one’s peril. Don’t give officials any excuse for pettiness.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

RYA information on flag etiquette including extra information available if you are an RYA member, see link below.

Having sailed on many MODU vessels, unless in a port under the jurisdiction of the country of vessel registration, a courtesy flag was always flown as part of entering the country, the last three countries were Korea, South Africa and USA, each time the vessel hoisted the courtesy flag (British registered vessel, Irish, British masters). However, on a MODU, where we may be anchored for years in a country other than our registration country, the courtesy flag was not flown for any duration when at work, offshore, post clearance. In some cases it was but I think this was just down to individual masters.

According to the RYA there is no legal requirement to fly a courtesy flag.

Flag etiquette | RYA

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The clue is in the name, courtesy flag. It does, however, show how courteous you wish to be. Expect your gesture, whichever way, to be returned.

 

[LittleSister]

However if you’re seriously that strapped for cash, get an old singer sewing machine with a crank handle (often available free or almost free) and scrounge a range of coloured cloths from and make your own courtesy flag for the next country while on passage. Don’t laugh, I’ve heard it’s been done.

I imagine that if push comes to shove, a bit of plain white cloth (or thin plastic sheeting?) and a set of coloured permanent markers could do the trick.

Or one could take up embroidery!

I have a vague recollection of once contemplating a last-minute trip to the Netherlands, and lacking a Dutch courtesy flag discussing how we could mount our French courtesy flag turned through 90 degrees.

I'm also just remembering a Mike Peyton cartoon, where a yacht is coming round a mole to enter a harbour in less than ideal conditions. A crew member is balancing on deck hoisting a French courtesy flag, and the skipper is shouting 'Hang fire with that courtesy flag' as he spots a huge direction sign on the harbour wall in English.

 

[dunedin]

Gosh, I take great pleasure in flying a courtesy flag as it shows I respect the rules of where I am the fact I am celebrating arriving there.

I find one of these on the port side in France extremely useful at it indicates we have an auld alliance.

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If you are going for a Scottish "ensign" I always think you should do the Scottish white "ensign", as it doubles the volume of spilt G&T (no whisky gets disturbed).
But yes in France, as well as a regional courtesy flag (eg Brittany) we fly a saltire as house flag on the port spreader. And an Ecosse sticker on the car.