Red Diesel

[gjgm]

Free passage is a right enjoyed by UK boat owners far longer than red diesel.

If there was no move afoot by our own HMRC to clarify the matter with a signed declaration of intent to act unlawfully then I would be tempted to agree with the "Don't go to Belgium then line".

Unfortunately that is not the case and once signed, in my view anyway, the rest of the EU will find the temptation to fine UK boats far too much.

From there white will become the norm for UK coastal boats and even if the UK continues to allow the use of red, when it comes to sale time you would be selling a sea boat that can't go anywhere. Boats run on white will be more desirable and hence worth more.

Regardless of actual use, buying a boat or trading up are often accompanied by thoughts of foreign travel, even if the prospective purchaser knows he will not be going, he will also know that the person he intends to sell to when the time comes may not.

If this does go through it will be the end of red for coastal boats, maybe not on April1st but it won't be far behind.

I think you forgot to say "In my opinion".
The reason no one is going anywhere in a motor boat is the cost of fuel. Increasing it by 25pct or so is going to do far more damage than a bit of fudging to try to keep the cost down.

 

[ian38_39]

I apologise but my post was totally in my opinion, however I did mention that it was only my view of the situation "in my view anyway". Guess the devil is in the detail and although it looks the same it may not be construed as such by others.

You also have a valid point on people not going anywhere due to cost of fuel.
My boat is petrol so it is not stopping me yet our intentions of going to Belgium and Holland this year have been abandoned and replaced with an intention of a trip not exceeding 50 miles from our home berth, with the aim to spend more time relaxing than motoring.

 

[P4Paul]

Forgive me but I am not getting why there are so many people feeling hard done by.

All the research I have done tells me the following:

If I stay in UK or international waters I can use red diesel and at the point of purchase I can nominate how much of the fuel I think will be used for heating and power generation and pay a reduced rate for that amount of fuel.

If I wish to travel into European waters I should make arrangements to remove the red (marked) diesel from my tank and fill with white fuel. Upon my return I can refill with the red previously removed.

White diesel is available via lorry, timing my trips would mean I would need to remove less than 100L, something I did last year when suffering from fuel bug and took less than half an hour.

Traces of having used red diesel in my tanks wouldn't cause any issues in European waters as everything I have read suggests that the issue surrounds physically having marked (red) diesel in the tank. Taking the receipts for the white diesel showing the volume purchased with me would seem prudent!

Perhaps I am being thick but I just can't see where there is a problem

 

[ian38_39]

Not so sure on that, didn't work for the two boats visiting Germany one of them took on two tanks of white prior to arriving from America, where it used red legal for home waters. that is if the press are to be believed.

http://www.sail-world.com/Cruising/international/Foreign-yachts-fined-in-Europe-for-wrong-fuel/87266

Should be ok though as this only happens in Belgium so I am reliably informed

 

[P4Paul]

Not so sure on that, didn't work for the two boats visiting Germany one of them took on two tanks of white prior to arriving from America, where it used red legal for home waters. that is if the press are to be believed.

http://www.sail-world.com/Cruising/international/Foreign-yachts-fined-in-Europe-for-wrong-fuel/87266

Should be ok though as this only happens in Belgium so I am reliably informed

Maybe that is the difference, my interpretation is that if the red is completely removed and then the tank filled with white (rather than just topping off the tanks) then you will have complied with the EU directives covering marked fuels and minimum duty rates when in other countries waters. I am not saying it wouldn't be challenged but if an empty tank was filled to the brim with white then logically there could be no way marked fuel could have been used within the relevant european waters.

At least it would form a fairly strong defence if taken to Strasburg.

 

[joliette]

" Already marinas are emptying, people giving up left right and centre. "


Marinas are emptying mainly due to the horrid real world finally seeping into the La La land of boating.
Terminally addicted to cheap credit and cheap fuel,the boating world is being forced into to a more realistic level of activity at every level.

Yes, I agree with that, the slump we are now in is forcing people out. If things carry on like this then powerboating may return to being a sport for the very rich, who don't have to worry if it's red or white in their tanks because the extortionate levels of tax on fuel are of no financial consequence to them?

If we continue on this path then, in my opinion, the industry will be forced to downsize and the finance companies will be taking posession of boats that have little market value as an ever diminishing number of folk in the UK will be able to afford to run them!

If that's the 'horrid real world' we're heading for then I want to ask what we can do to change the heading rather than accept it as a future 'realistic level of activity'.

 

[maby]

...

If that's the 'horrid real world' we're heading for then I want to ask what we can do to change the heading rather than accept it as a future 'realistic level of activity'.

Well, you can reverse the global financial crisis - and if you can work out how to do that, you will make so much money that you will not have to worry about the loss os a bit of tax rebate on your fuel!

 

[MY littlebirchwoo]

I do hope that HMRC don't turn around on April 1st and shout "April Fool" - sadly not!

 

[MY littlebirchwoo]

Not so sure on that, didn't work for the two boats visiting Germany one of them took on two tanks of white prior to arriving from America, where it used red legal for home waters. that is if the press are to be believed.

http://www.sail-world.com/Cruising/international/Foreign-yachts-fined-in-Europe-for-wrong-fuel/87266

Should be ok though as this only happens in Belgium so I am reliably informed

Interestingly I too would question the validity of this story as if they were 'mega-yachts' surely they would be either coded as commercial vessels or registered as commercial vessels if not European based - therefore commercial fuel rates as the article says. But it says they were private craft so surely not 'mega yachts'! or am I just being argumentative!

What is interesting about this article however is that even after 38,000 litres of fuel, the original red was still detectable. Working in the transport industry I can tell you the VOSA testers at the roadside can detect if red has been in a lorry tank EVER, such is the marking that is used nowadays (Not just a dye but also chemically marked). So if if transpires in the future that the likes of our neighbours are going to fine us for even having a trace of red in the system, well we are well and truly screwed!

 

[ian38_39]

Maybe that is the difference, my interpretation is that if the red is completely removed and then the tank filled with white (rather than just topping off the tanks) then you will have complied with the EU directives covering marked fuels and minimum duty rates when in other countries waters. I am not saying it wouldn't be challenged but if an empty tank was filled to the brim with white then logically there could be no way marked fuel could have been used within the relevant european waters.

At least it would form a fairly strong defence if taken to Strasburg.

You would still have pink fuel and you are dealing with officialdum here my guess is they would just say how do I know your tanks were empty and you have not just put half the fuel in someone else's boat?.

 

[ian38_39]

Interestingly I too would question the validity of this story as if they were 'mega-yachts' surely they would be either coded as commercial vessels or registered as commercial vessels if not European based - therefore commercial fuel rates as the article says. But it says they were private craft so surely not 'mega yachts'! or am I just being argumentative!

What is interesting about this article however is that even after 38,000 litres of fuel, the original red was still detectable. Working in the transport industry I can tell you the VOSA testers at the roadside can detect if red has been in a lorry tank EVER, such is the marking that is used nowadays (Not just a dye but also chemically marked). So if if transpires in the future that the likes of our neighbours are going to fine us for even having a trace of red in the system, well we are well and truly screwed!

Not sure how it works to be honest as if you have a tanker delivery the chances are it has two tanks but only one hose. The fuel quantity is measured at the pump and not the nozel and what is in the hose is whatever was delivered last. Have heard written of road vehicles being prosecuted for trace quantity's but the fuel companies tell you you are allowed a percentage red due to delivery issues.

I suppose if the diesel in your tank is not pure white the technically it is dyed.

 

[MY littlebirchwoo]

Fuel Tankers (TTFs) are totally dedicated units these days. If they have combination tanks (Very rare these days) they have individual pipes. A 'red' diesel carrying tanker will always carry red and white always white. Long gone are the days of de-gassing and changing fuels. They will always carry the same fuel grade.

I can assure you, if you got pulled by VOSA at the roadside and even trace was found in your main tank, that's you impounded at the roadside!

I'm not sure where you got the 'delivery issues' info from - may have been true in the past but can't find info on that now Ian. I have just phoned a friend who works from coryton and has confirmed 100% dedicated fleet everywhere in his knowlege also

 

[maby]

...
So if if transpires in the future that the likes of our neighbours are going to fine us for even having a trace of red in the system, well we are well and truly screwed!

All the continentals have already been down this path and converted to white by simply running the tank down and refilling two or three times. If you do the sums based on the figures from the technical paper that comes with the fuel marking directive, it comes out that running the tank down to about 10% and refilling twice with white just about gets you below the lower limit of detection and a Belgian confirmed that when they converted the advice was three complete refills would get them legal.

 

[MY littlebirchwoo]

All the continentals have already been down this path and converted to white by simply running the tank down and refilling two or three times. If you do the sums based on the figures from the technical paper that comes with the fuel marking directive, it comes out that running the tank down to about 10% and refilling twice with white just about gets you below the lower limit of detection and a Belgian confirmed that when they converted the advice was three complete refills would get them legal.

Referring to the article posted earlier in the thread where the skipper had put 38,000 litres through the tanks and the Germans still fined him!!

I was referring to VOSA who will tell if you put red diesel in your tank even 5 years ago! This is because the 'red' dye used in the UK has a permanent chemical marking system now to prevent it being 'bleached' and sold on/used as duty-paid fuel which was happening a few years ago!

I absolutely guarantee that a couple of tank fills will not make the red undetectable - not UK red anyhooo

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...ntent&propertyType=document&id=HMCE_CL_000164

 

[maby]

Referring to the article posted earlier in the thread where the skipper had put 38,000 litres through the tanks and the Germans still fined him!!

I was referring to VOSA who will tell if you put red diesel in your tank even 5 years ago! This is because the 'red' dye used in the UK has a permanent chemical marking system now to prevent it being 'bleached' and sold on/used as duty-paid fuel which was happening a few years ago!

I absolutely guarantee that a couple of tank fills will not make the red undetectable - not UK red anyhooo

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...ntent&propertyType=document&id=HMCE_CL_000164

The technical paper attached to the directive describes the tests to be performed and notes that at concentrations below 0.12mg/l of dye in diesel, the test becomes unreliable with false positives. Since we dose at 9mg/l a dilution of 75:1 will get the concentration below the limit of reliable evidential detection. If you got fined on the strength of residual colour, you should be able to challenge it in court on the grounds that the test does not provide safe evidence at those levels.

As I said before, we are not alone in this - just coming to it late. Most other EU members were selling red diesel to their leisure sailors up to eight years or so ago. They were given a grace period of a couple of years and managed to get the dye levels down to acceptable levels by just burning the fuel and refilling several times.

 

[MY littlebirchwoo]

You are absolutely right. We were given the derogation period, as mentioned before, so that we could get our house in order, we didn't and the current stance is none other than to absolve HMRC and more importantly the British Government from EU action by moving the onus for use on us. Sadly we are in a situation where inevitably we will end up having to use white, high ethanol content, road fuel as the general demand for white 'marine' fuel will not be sufficient enough to make it worthwhile, whilst the demand for red 'marine' diesel for commercial operations will continue as normal. Then on top of that, like all things marine it will be sold at a premium.

I'm not trying to be pessimistic on this issue, but EU law supercedes English Law. Sadly - very sadly, I think the £2/lt days are just around the corner

 

[joliette]

You are absolutely right. We were given the derogation period, as mentioned before, so that we could get our house in order, we didn't and the current stance is none other than to absolve HMRC and more importantly the British Government from EU action by moving the onus for use on us. Sadly we are in a situation where inevitably we will end up having to use white, high ethanol content, road fuel as the general demand for white 'marine' fuel will not be sufficient enough to make it worthwhile, whilst the demand for red 'marine' diesel for commercial operations will continue as normal. Then on top of that, like all things marine it will be sold at a premium.

I'm not trying to be pessimistic on this issue, but EU law supercedes English Law. Sadly - very sadly, I think the £2/lt days are just around the corner

I didn't realise that the white diesel had a high ethanol content. The recently increased ethanol content in petrol has resulted in the degradation of fibreglass fuel tanks in petrol boats, so they are best avoided or replaced. Ethanol dissolves the resin in the tank walls, just like osmotic blistering, results in serious weakening, causing leaks. Styrene disloves in the fuel and passes through to the engine causing fouling problems. Both polyester and epoxy resins are suscpetible.

This document http://www.smmt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Changes-Spec-NR-Gas-Oil-261110.pdf describes the effects on machines and fuel storage of 7% FAME (Fatty Acid Methly Ester) content.

So, if there is a move from red to white, then there could be additional significant conversion costs to the boat owner with grp tanks.

 

[Latestarter1]

NO Ethanol in road diesel!

NRMM high useage gas oil is idendical to full duty road fuel, both virtually sulphur free i.e less than 10 ppm. Has been the case since 1st Jan 2011. This was the cause of all the fuss over FAME. As the two fuels were effectively the same and in order to simplify distribution plan was that NRMM fuel is downgraded once loaded in the tanker by addition of dye at this point. Because road fuel is bound by RTFO has added FAME (At very low levels). This is what caused all the screaming and demads for a separate marine fuel.

Rail industry is now switching over to NRMM fuel therefore process is now pretty much complete.

When we get round to moving from RCD to RCD II virtually sulphur free fuel will be bound up in the legislaton and therefore mandated.

Good job that many of the turkeys voting for Christmas posting here were not part of consultation process........Legislation would never get through.

 

[MY littlebirchwoo]

Apologies, for ethanol read biodiesel/FAME... late night typing and all that!

However, FAME - the process very basically of breaking down the fatty acids means the addition or creation of an alcohol. Fatty-acid methyl ester is 'transesterified' using methanol (almost identical properties to ethanol).FAME does however have a lower oxidation stability than petro-diesel which give excellent conditions for bacterial growth. FAME should not be used in applications of 'low' useage, amd although we have had to live with the ruling that SFGO is to be used for Inland Waterways and vessels that DO NOT go to sea, it does NOT apply to sea going leisure boats.

Many insurance companies now will not cover damages as a result of bacterial growth, so Latestarter1 please explain why even some 'named' engine manufacturers will invalidate engine warranties (BMF News article) where 'high' FAME (7%) content fuel has been used and has caused engine issues and why you seem to miss the point that it has been proven over and over again that straight from the pump road fuel is often problematic in marine applications due to the time it spends in the tanks - especially over winter periods. As a diesel engineer I would have hoped you wold have explained that a little more.

You are right in saying that 'red' diesel is often road fuel that is marked, however, most of the marine outlets we use guarantee FAME free fuel.

I do stand by my statement though, inevitably we will be forced into using road fuel as our primary fuel in the future. And as far as fuel directives go, marine engines are tabled to adhere to Euro Cat levels in the coming years also

Also as for your 'over used' 'turkeys voting for christmas' comment, if you honestly believe this change of wording in the HMRC proposed directive will do anything other than distance them from a possible legal challenge from the EU, then think again. I do not need to quote numbers and figures, just understand the basic premise of why this change in wording has been suggested... It changes nothing in what we are doing? (RYA / MBY) It most certainly does if other EU members chose to interpret the ruling differently, it criminalises British boaters who chose to venture to neighbouring countries with marked fuel bought in the UK despite what duty is paid.

 

[oldgit]

careful there, your chips are showing...

A couple of forests worth at least !