ian38_39
Well-Known Member
True, for one thing there would only need to be one meeting and one vote. This would impact heavily on the expenses claims of the MEP's so you are right. A totally ridiculous idea.
Red Diesel
- Thread starter joliette
- Start date
ian38_39
Well-Known Member
What makes it even more Ludicrous is that we now even have a separate supply chain for marine diesel after it was decided that for inland boats all fuel supplied must be ULSD. As there is a problem with the bio content found in road fuel when used in leisure boats there is a dedicated supply of bio free USLD run specifically for the marine industry. Mark this with Green and everyone would be happy, or at least all the problems caused by red would be solved. Obviously if we are talking about the EU nobody is going to be happy.
Only problem is it falls foul on the fact that it is still a marked fuel so it would need an amendment to the wording in the legislation to change the word Dyed (marked) to red.
Only problem is it falls foul on the fact that it is still a marked fuel so it would need an amendment to the wording in the legislation to change the word Dyed (marked) to red.
gjgm
Well-Known Member
gjgm
Well-Known Member
Years ago, I actually read the directive as there was so much blx talked about it, but I confess I cant be bothered to read it again ....I did try a search on here, but cant find the relevent posts.
I am pretty sure the directive relates to use of dyed fuel and propulsion.
But you are saying that if you put in red at full duty for propulsion, you are still on the wrong side of the directive?
Lotus_John
Member
I don't think this is the case.
The EU directive stated that we could not sell the same fuel at different tax rates. They considered that red marine and white road fuel as the same fuel. At the time I thought we should argue that it is clearly not the same fuel (and apply the minimum tax to it) ,as it is not low sulphur, it contains no bio and it is red.
The leisure aircraft industry argued the case that their aviation fuel was not petrol and were able to apply the minimum tax rate to it.
I would be very pleased if we could just dye fuel for marine use green and apply the minimum tax to it but I fear we we threw that opportunity away when we chose not to follow the lead set by the leisure aviation industry.
ian38_39
Well-Known Member
Exactly the same opportunity still exists with green given that it would be marine fuel with no bio. Road fuel must have bio.
It is I beleive UK gov that won't apply different rates. If I am right the only requirement from Europe is that the minimum dity is applied, happy to be corrected.
It is I beleive UK gov that won't apply different rates. If I am right the only requirement from Europe is that the minimum dity is applied, happy to be corrected.
grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
The directives apply to governments, not people, so you're actually breaking a Belgian law of some kind (but no-one seems to know which one - which is a bit fundamental). I would imagine that the laws refer to the use of the fuel rather than whether it's in a particular tank (but I certainly don't know). As I understand it the UK government allows marked diesel (i.e. dyed red and with a chemical marker) to be used for both propulsion of a privately-owned leisure boat and for heating purposes. There's two possible interpretations of that. The first is that the UK Government is not following the directive. In that case the action is against the UK government, not the individual. You'd probably still be breaking a Belgian law regarding the incorrect use of marked fuel though.
The second interpretation would be that the very fact that some of the fuel has tax and duty paid at the full rate on it means that the marker and dye in UK red diesel cannot be a marker/dye added to identify fuel sold at a lower tax or duty rate as described in the EU directive. This would mean that you would not be breaking a law regarding the incorect use of marked fuel - providing you could convince the courts of course. The UK government would still be breaking the EU directive regarding marked fuel but they still will be anyway even if the proposed idea of only using red in UK waters goes ahead.
I'm not a lawyer though and I've made a lot of assumptions in there - something no lawyer would ever do.
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
I also can't remember the exact wording of the directive. But, the recent email from the Belgium embassy did state that the current issue was the used of "marked fuel".
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
We are currently using low sulphur gas oil, with a red marker, in most marinas. OK, some coastal marinas will/may be using a higher sulphur gas oil. It really does seem blindingly obvious to produce one fuel that is suitable for all leisure boats, ie low sulphur gas oil and then mark that with a unique dye. I'd avoid green, so as not to confuse the Belgiums that it might be Irish tractor diesel. Let's dye it orange, for instance.
The new orange marine fuel will have the EU minimum duty charged to it. It will be easy for other EU plod to recognise. It will be easy for HMRC to recognise. We all use one fuel for leisure boats in the UK. The commercial boys can use red, if that isn't available, they can use orange fuel and claim the duty back, same as they do VAT. HMRC will be able to spot the orange stuff in cars, same as they do red. They will also be able to spot red in boats, which stops anyone using tractor diesel and avoiding the duty.
The UK will be in compliance with the EU minimum duty directive. All we need is an amendment that marine fuel in the UK (or any other EU member state) can be orange, provided it has duty charged at the minimum rate. No need for extra tanks/pumps etc in marinas, just run them low and give them a clean. The marinas will soon recoup the money for cleaning them, as fuel sales will increase as people stop using fiddled tractor fuel.
The new orange marine fuel will have the EU minimum duty charged to it. It will be easy for other EU plod to recognise. It will be easy for HMRC to recognise. We all use one fuel for leisure boats in the UK. The commercial boys can use red, if that isn't available, they can use orange fuel and claim the duty back, same as they do VAT. HMRC will be able to spot the orange stuff in cars, same as they do red. They will also be able to spot red in boats, which stops anyone using tractor diesel and avoiding the duty.
The UK will be in compliance with the EU minimum duty directive. All we need is an amendment that marine fuel in the UK (or any other EU member state) can be orange, provided it has duty charged at the minimum rate. No need for extra tanks/pumps etc in marinas, just run them low and give them a clean. The marinas will soon recoup the money for cleaning them, as fuel sales will increase as people stop using fiddled tractor fuel.
ian38_39
Well-Known Member
Ok that is me and you Paul, now all we need is a bit of support and an mep to get it underway.
Lotus_John
Member
As I said the directive stated that we could not charge a different rate of duty for the same fuel.
For the last 4 years HMRC have accepted that it is the same fuel,regardless of it's colour and applied the same tax as applied to road fuel, at least the propulsion element of that fuel.
Our lobbying groups chose not to argue that it was not the same as road fuel and the lowest rate of tax could be applied. Probably too late now to make this claim.
What surprises me is that several years into the new arrangement it has become apparent that we are in contravention of another EU regulation regarding the use of marked fuel in leisure boats, surely this should have been investigated at the time especially as there was an opportunity to apply the minimum EU tax by highlighting the differences between marine and road diesel, an approach that succeeded for the leisure aviation industry.
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
To keep things in perspective, 50% is very much an exaggeration. Yesterday the difference in price between white marine diesel (which nobody sells yet) and red diesel with 60% duty added was 19p per litre. Hence the cost would go from approx £1.15p to approx £1.35.
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
Where are you getting your white from for £1.35 ?
Marinas here are charging close to £1.50 for red.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
maby
Well-Known Member
I think he is talking about the effective price after the 60/40 discount.
joliette
Well-Known Member
Regarding perspective, how about taking a global one (prices in US cents per litre): http://chartsbin.com/view/1128
Spot the Eurozone (ironically the colour of red diesel!) we must all be doing so terribly well for ourselves to be able to afford such massive taxation?
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BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
Where is 'here' to you?
Red on the South Coast sells at 85p/litre before duty, £1.35 after at 100% duty, £1.15 at 60%
The price of white out of the refinery pre duty is currently within a penny of red.
neale
Well-Known Member
Quite interesting to see Belgium on that map is a different colour to its neighbours
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
I'm on the East Coast.
You're claiming that where it available, white "marine" diesel would be £1.35. I don't believe that would be the case. Red here is currently more than that, for one thing. For another, white road fuel is also more than that.
Can anyone really see white diesel in marinas being cheaper than Tesco's ?