Red diesel - the case remains open

[BlueSkyNick]

Someone's got to pay for Gordy Brown's aircraft carriers. And Camerclown's replacement for Trident.

I realise that, but just because we are being exploited to use our cars doesnt automatically mean we should be exploited to use our boats too.

The push to scrap relief on duty on red diesel is coming from Europe - where they dont charge the same amount of duty on fuel so it is less of an issue for boaters as well as drivers.

 

[HunterWanderer]

But we cant be trusted not to syphon it from the boat into the road vehicle can we

No. But you would have to pay the duty first then reclaim it. If found out that what youve claimed for heating was used for road use you would have to sit on the naughty step.

But at least you could go to Belgium without worry

 

[RobbieW]

I realise that, but just because we are being exploited to use our cars doesnt automatically mean we should be exploited to use our boats too.

The push to scrap relief on duty on red diesel is coming from Europe - where they dont charge the same amount of duty on fuel so it is less of an issue for boaters as well as drivers.

Hmm, with marine diesel at 1.65 in Italy, 1.45 in France (Bonifacio) and around 1.42 in Spain (all in Euros of course, the lappie has a US keyboard & cant remember the ALT code) so even with some currency correction I dont see the the lower duty making a big change at the pump

NB those prices are all in the last month

 

[fisherman]

Petrol after duty reclaim is broadly the same price as red diesel, or was last time I had an outboard. What I contend is, can you actually be prosecuted for using red in a leisure boat? Can anyone quote the law in question? Would a test case succeed? One problem is the supplier has to be satisfied that the red he sells is going in a commercial boat. Some research on google says that red can be used in a vehicle which is SORNed, and not used on the road, so why not a boat? Have a look through this:
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...ropertyType=document&id=HMCE_CL_000164#P9_134
The whole document is about vehicles which may use red because they are engaged in agriculture, horticulture or forestry, and not for road haulage. A local farmer was prosecuted for towing a boat two miles on the road with a tractor using red diesel, it was haulage not agriculture or fishing.

 

[sailorman]

No. But you would have to pay the duty first then reclaim it. If found out that what youve claimed for heating was used for road use you would have to sit on the naughty step.

But at least you could go to Belgium without worry

when were you last in Belgium

 

[jimbaerselman]

I think many have missed the point. The reason for paying "duty" on fuel is to reduce its consumption. And incidentally, to provide government income.

But a whole lot of moaning minnies whinnied. Pensioners claimed they'd freeze. Farmers that they couldn't plough. Fishermen that they couldn't fish.

Now, of course, "subsidies" are politically sensitive, disapproved of by economists and the vast majority of voters who don't get them. But farmers can block roads, fishermen lock ports, and we have an enormous number of pensioners who vote far more consistently than younger generations.

So, instead of having one rate of duty for fuel and providing politically sensitive subsidies (rebates) for lobbies who created uncomfortable pressures for government, government hides the subsidy by charging lower rates to supply noisy lobby groups. A hidden subsidy . . . which means two types of fuel.

Which adds cost by creating a dual supply system, provides wonderful opportunities for smuggling, adds costs for policing the smuggling, lowers government income, and reduces the incentives to insulate homes or make more efficient engines . . . quite apart from ministers to ministrate this bureaucracy

Add lightness by simplicating - white only - a lovely incentive to reduce fuel consumption intelligently

 

[maby]

Petrol after duty reclaim is broadly the same price as red diesel, or was last time I had an outboard. What I contend is, can you actually be prosecuted for using red in a leisure boat? Can anyone quote the law in question? Would a test case succeed? ....

That is the root of the EU complaint against this country. There is an EU Directive which says that marked fuel should not be sold to leisure boat owners if it can be used for propulsion. The sale of marked fuel to us is legal if it can only be used for heating or running a generator. The UK government should have translated this directive into a national law, but has not done so, simply requiring us to pay the full rate of duty on it as if it were unmarked fuel.

 

[NormanS]

That is the root of the EU complaint against this country. There is an EU Directive which says that marked fuel should not be sold to leisure boat owners if it can be used for propulsion. The sale of marked fuel to us is legal if it can only be used for heating or running a generator. The UK government should have translated this directive into a national law, but has not done so, simply requiring us to pay the full rate of duty on it as if it were unmarked fuel.

It is perfectly legal to use Red diesel for any purpose in a leisure boat in the UK.
It is up to the owner to declare the proportion of the fuel used for propulsion, on which duty is charged, and the proportion used for heating, lighting, battery charging etc, on which no duty is charges.

HMRC have let it be known that they will not quibble if you claim 40% for heating etc, but you can claim more, it's up to you, if you can justify it. Just for interest, has anyone been challenged for claiming a bigger percentage?

 

[chewi]

It is perfectly legal to use Red diesel for any purpose in a leisure boat in the UK.
It is up to the owner to declare the proportion of the fuel used for propulsion, on which duty is charged, and the proportion used for heating, lighting, battery charging etc, on which no duty is charges.

HMRC have let it be known that they will not quibble if you claim 40% for heating etc, but you can claim more, it's up to you, if you can justify it. Just for interest, has anyone been challenged for claiming a bigger percentage?

I can see that a canal or house boat might quite legitimately use almost all of it for heat and power, using propulsion only to get to the fuel station & back.

 

[maby]

It is perfectly legal to use Red diesel for any purpose in a leisure boat in the UK.
...

I didn't deny it was - but the UK law which is permitting it is not consistent with the EU directive and that is the root of the problem. As an EU member, we are supposed to enact laws that implement EU directives and the laws that HMRC are currently enforcing don't do that.

 

[ffiill]

It's not really about the tax, it's about the colour. Red = low duty, White = full duty. I suspect if the UK allowed boaters to reclaim some of the tax on white diesel, Brussels would not object. They object to the UK misusing the purpose of the red dye.

Exactly-there is nothing to stop the UK selling low duty purple diesel to the boat leisure market(or whatever colour of marker dye is chosen)Its just that British Government see this as an easily won bit of extra revenue!

 

[maby]

Exactly-there is nothing to stop the UK selling low duty purple diesel to the boat leisure market(or whatever colour of marker dye is chosen)Its just that British Government see this as an easily won bit of extra revenue!

There is plenty to stop the UK selling marked diesel to the leisure market - read the directives - if you can manage to stay awake long enough! I'm not pro-EU and will be voting to pull out if we ever get the opportunity, but we are currently signed up to treaties that require UK law to implement all EU directives and the sale of marked diesel to us is not compatible with those directives - sorry!

 

[michael_w]

This is just about the only EU directive that our Civil Service haven't gold plated.

 

[maby]

This is just about the only EU directive that our Civil Service haven't gold plated.

Interesting, isn't it? I am still puzzled as to why the government (both this and the previous one) would go out on a limb so much for us - it's not as if there are many votes in it and, if the newspapers ever got hold of the fact that the owners of enormous gas-guzzling gin palaces get cheap fuel while the poverty stricken motorist pays top whack, there would be no sympathy at all!

 

[NormanS]

I can see that a canal or house boat might quite legitimately use almost all of it for heat and power, using propulsion only to get to the fuel station & back.

My Eber uses an awful lot in the "Winter".

 

[DaveS]

Interesting, isn't it? I am still puzzled as to why the government (both this and the previous one) would go out on a limb so much for us - it's not as if there are many votes in it and, if the newspapers ever got hold of the fact that the owners of enormous gas-guzzling gin palaces get cheap fuel while the poverty stricken motorist pays top whack, there would be no sympathy at all!

It is indeed rare that the UK government goes against EU pressure. FWIW I think they were persuaded by the RYA and others that there is a genuine safety concern. In the remoter parts of the UK the only diesel readily available to a marine user is red and this is unlikely to change. The idea that dual tank systems with white available for yachties is ever going to happen is fantasy. In remote areas yachtie use is probably well under 1% of total use and the odd dribble required is sold essentially as a favour. (Which can allegedly be quite a profitable favour. When I bought diesel at Ullapool 100% duty was applied - no interest at all shown in 60:40 splits. Of course I'm sure this was all accurately reported back to HMRC...) If yachties in remote areas were prohibited from using red there could easily be serious safety issues.

I can entirely understand the logic of the "all go white" idea, with commercial users reclaiming the duty. However, apart from the cash flow issue which they have used as an argument against this approach when previously consulted, there is an international competition issue here: what foreign vessel is going to willingly bunker in the UK on white when they can fill up with red anywhere else? This is not an easy issue to resolve. One idea might be to pursue a derogation on the "marked fuel" rules for sparsely populated areas where finding any fuel is an issue. Much of Scotland and Ireland are obvious candidates, but there may well be areas of continental Europe with the same issue.

 

[Daydream believer]

I topped up my household fuel tank last week.
1000 litres at a cost of 55p per litre so it is a lot less tham marina sourced fuel
Years ago i used some household fuel ( i think it was described as 32nd gasoil) in my dumpers & mixers ( listers & petters) with no marked difference in performance. I am sure the petters based volvo pentas out there are not much different after all these years
So the moral is-- if you are not going abroad, syphon off some household fuel ( when the wife is not looking) & use it in the boat
Does not work if you have a gas boiler though!!

 

[maby]

I topped up my household fuel tank last week.
1000 litres at a cost of 55p per litre so it is a lot less tham marina sourced fuel
Years ago i used some household fuel ( i think it was described as 32nd gasoil) in my dumpers & mixers ( listers & petters) with no marked difference in performance. I am sure the petters based volvo pentas out there are not much different after all these years
So the moral is-- if you are not going abroad, syphon off some household fuel ( when the wife is not looking) & use it in the boat
Does not work if you have a gas boiler though!!

Which is exactly why the EU is unhappy about the current HMRC policy!

 

[LittleShip]

I alway thought that heating fuel and engine fuel had a different burn rate.

Heating is 28 second and engine fuel is 35 second........ Or is age confusing me ???

Burning heating fuel won't provide the same power as engine fuel, mind you I don't think you would notice that in a dumper truck. ��

Tom

 

[Stork_III]

I topped up my household fuel tank last week.
1000 litres at a cost of 55p per litre so it is a lot less tham marina sourced fuel
Years ago i used some household fuel ( i think it was described as 32nd gasoil) in my dumpers & mixers ( listers & petters) with no marked difference in performance. I am sure the petters based volvo pentas out there are not much different after all these years
So the moral is-- if you are not going abroad, syphon off some household fuel ( when the wife is not looking) & use it in the boat
Does not work if you have a gas boiler though!!

My home supplier currently has 28 sec Heating Oil @ 60p/l, and Red Diesel (35 Sec) @ 68.5 p/l, inc VAT for domestic comsumption. My Marina sells full rate red @ £1.46, and reduced rate red @ £0.785. (£1.19 @60/40)