sailorman
Well-Known Member
it would end up covered in pot holes full of water
Red diesel - the case remains open
- Thread starter Twister_Ken
- Start date
it would end up covered in pot holes full of water
doris
Well-Known Member
As far as I am concerned the argument is about availability and suitability of marine white diesel.
It is impossible for me, and almost all UK forumites to get white marine diesel for their boats. To make it available would cost millions, who is going to pay for that?
Do I want bio-diesel sitting in my boat tanks for months? It's fine for my car with a fortnightly turnover of a tankful but not the same for a boat. Therefore we need different fuel, no bio, more sulphur etc.
Who is going to provide this and how? I am really not concerned with the price. Marine fuel is already more expensive than roadside.
It is impossible for me, and almost all UK forumites to get white marine diesel for their boats. To make it available would cost millions, who is going to pay for that?
Do I want bio-diesel sitting in my boat tanks for months? It's fine for my car with a fortnightly turnover of a tankful but not the same for a boat. Therefore we need different fuel, no bio, more sulphur etc.
Who is going to provide this and how? I am really not concerned with the price. Marine fuel is already more expensive than roadside.
Seven Spades
Well-Known Member
Even if we paid full tax, every time you fill up at the channel islands you will get more red dye in your tank.
uxb
Well-Known Member
The simple solution would be for our useless, theiving, cowardly,scumbag politicians to tell the Eurocrats to eff off.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
And speed humps! oh, we have them already free of charge.
Seven Spades
Well-Known Member
This is where you are going wrong. Boater do not get reduced fuel it is road users whose fuel is inflated to contribute to the cost of the infrastructure they use. Once you grasp this you will realise the injustice of asking boater to maker a similar contribution
fisherman
Well-Known Member
DERV:
derv [dɜːv]
n
(Engineering / Automotive Engineering) a Brit name for diesel oil when used for road transport
[from d(iesel) e(ngine) r(oad) v(ehicle)]
Surely there's a legal case here?
derv [dɜːv]
n
(Engineering / Automotive Engineering) a Brit name for diesel oil when used for road transport
[from d(iesel) e(ngine) r(oad) v(ehicle)]
Surely there's a legal case here?
sailorman
Well-Known Member
i have not noticed diesel fuel being sold these daze as DERV on a forecourt
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
I think you are confusing VAT and Duty, as 16% of the gross price is the same as 20% VAT on the net price.
Duty is not a percentage of the fuel price, it is a set figure of 49.15p per litre, including VAT. (It is something like 60p per litre for road fuel, IIRC)
flaming
Well-Known Member
I grasp that, however I'm saying that the link between duty on fuel and spending on infrastructure is no longer valid.
A side point of this Telegraph article is;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...paying-in-tax-on-petrol-receipts-MP-says.html
So it's pretty clear that the tax is being charged for other reasons. You may disagree with those reasons but if the principal reason for the charging the tax is NOT road maintenance, then those reasons would apply equally to boaters.
Note, I would be in favour of a reduction in the tax taken from road fuel, I think it has reached levels beyond that which are justifiable. But I can see no argument that boaters should pay less.
In fact, clearly this is the case now. Remember even under the current system we are meant to pay full duty on fuel used for propulsion. And reduced duty on that used for heating or charging.
LittleShip
Well-Known Member
Ok please clear this up for me......
If You purchase red diesel in a 200 later drum you can buy it for £160 (80p/ltr) they then charge 5% vat on top total £168.00. How is duty worked out when there are so many different prices in marinas ????
Tom
If You purchase red diesel in a 200 later drum you can buy it for £160 (80p/ltr) they then charge 5% vat on top total £168.00. How is duty worked out when there are so many different prices in marinas ????
Tom
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
It is a complete bugger's muddle, and Trading Standards cant enforce consistent pricing display because there is no one correct number.
You can buy red diesel for 80p/ltr plus VAT at a marina too. That is the price of the fuel without the Excise duty added on. As I said before, this is added at 49.15p per litre on the percentage of the total number of litres that you have declared are to be used for propulsion. So if you had bought 200 litres, and declared 60%, your duty would be 200 x 60% x 49.15p which equals £58.98.
Their are two big issues with prices at marinas
- many reduce the price of fuel according to the quantity, eg 85p for less than 100l, 82p for 101 to 300, 80p over 300, etc. Regardless of this price - it can be whatever the marina chooses - the duty is still 49.15p per litre. VAT will go up and down because it is a percentage of the selling price, ie 20%.
- it is down to the customer to decide what percentage of duty he wishes to declare. HM Govt have indicated that 60% is acceptable, but the customer can choose whatever number he likes - he is the one who has to justify it to HMRC if challenged. Many marinas advertise the price including 100% duty which is legit but indicates a high price, or at 60% which is only the right price for those who choose to declare the percentage. If they force you to actually pay this amount, they are effectively breaking the law because it is down to you to decide that it is acceptable or not.
When the Chancellor of the Exchequer decides to put up Fuel Duty in the budget for road fuel, the 49.15p figure usually goes up too.
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fisherman
Well-Known Member
The duty I reclaim on red diesel is currently 11.14p per litre. The Vat is 5% of the total including duty. I thought the question in post #4 was about the duty on red.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Can you find anything authoritative that says that duty in road fuel goes to maintain the road system? My understanding is that it all just goes into the general taxation pot and is used to pay for whatever the government (I use the word lightly) of the day decides to spend it on.
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
Ah, I get it now -
The 11.14p duty is the difference between full duty and the rate applied to red diesel, only applicable to commercial users of red diesel. look here http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/hydro-oils.htm and scroll down to the table under the RDCO heading. (Marinas are RDCO's)
HunterWanderer
Well-Known Member
The crab boats at Cromer use petrol in their outboards and reclaim the road tax and VAT.
To keep the europeans happy diesel could be changed to white at marinas and the fuel for commercial boats and heating fuel in leisure boats could be reclaimed.
To keep the europeans happy diesel could be changed to white at marinas and the fuel for commercial boats and heating fuel in leisure boats could be reclaimed.
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
Everybody knows that the revenue raised from fuel duty is not equal to the operational cost and capital expenditure of the road systems. The government of the day simply exploits road users for as much as it can get away with, to raise money for the Treasury.
So why people are willing to allow themselves and the rest of us to be further exploited when they use their boat is beyond me.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Someone's got to pay for Gordy Brown's aircraft carriers. And Camerclown's replacement for Trident.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
But we cant be trusted not to syphon it from the boat into the road vehicle can we
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Who is to pay for those missing aircraft