Red diesel in Bulk ....

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Just a stupid question ....... if a Club / group of boaters got together and bought a road-tanker load of Red ........ before 2007 deadline and then used it after the demise of our Red diesel concession ?? Its not purchased after the deadline - actually bought before - sales doc would prove it .....

Would it be allowed ??


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
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What an evil thought Nigel, Suggestions of this nature are tantamount to treason, are you not a yottie, ergo you can afford to pay for your pleasure.....How else are we going to pay the politicions pensions and annual increase in salary, and how else are we going to contribute to Light dues. yours, growing older, less gracefully and a lot more cynically.....TW
P.S. Probably some legislation that says you can't store gas oil in bulk without LOTS & Lots of forms to fill in....

<hr width=100% size=1>Tony W.
 
Re: 2007

Is it now fact that the bottom drops out of the purse in 2007?

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What I would like to know,( and nothing is to be read into this!), is - if I buy 1000 litres of red diesel and have it delivered to my home, will the details be passed onto any official body?

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Quote from Docs on the web .......

Extension of Red Diesel Derogation
Reproduced from www.rya.org.uk 19 February 2001


RYA PRESSURE PAVES WAY FOR UK RED DIESEL CONCESSION
At the current meeting of European Finance ministers (Ecofin) an agreement has been reached to extend the derogation on Diesel excise duty for pleasure craft in the UK until 2007. Since identifying the impact of proposed new European wide tax harmonisation legislation back in 1998 Royal Yachting Association (RYA) have been lobbying the UK Government and its agencies to put the recreational boat operator’s point of view.
A report commissioned by the RYA, British Marine Industry Federation (BMIF) and the Inland Waterways Association (IWA) identified the impact that a three fold increase in duty would have on both the consumers and industry suppliers. This report was submitted to HM Customs and Excise to support the briefing at UK Government Finance officials at the Ecofin meeting. Subsequently it has been agreed, subject to final European Council ratification, that the current fuel derogation for pleasure Craft will remain in place until 2007.

Speaking about the decision Edmund Whelan who heads up the RYA’s Legal and Government Affairs team commented "We have been working closely with HM Customs and Excise to ensure that the views of private recreational boat owners and our concerns are fully understood. Apart from the obvious cost implications for pleasure craft owners and the potential damage to a flourishing industry, there were serious safety implications in removing the differential between petrol and diesel fuel. With the new duty likely to cost the pleasure boat user somewhere between £3-5 million, it was pleasing to see that they have taken on board the points we put to them."

The RYA will continue to monitor closely the progress of this decision and any other proposed legislation that might effect the boating consumers interests.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
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Mmmmm ..... yes !

Now who's to buy a BIG motor boat then !!! Lovely big diesels guzzling all that WHITE diesel .....

How many motor boats will come on market then ?? or before to beat the rush !!!

Raggies will quietly hoist sail and save money all the way to the bank.

Just think - sailing skills will return as people desparately try NOT to start the donkey, all those throttle jocks will slow down conserving fuel ......... Oh bliss !!!!

But of course no matter how expensive - there will always be some tart who opens up and shows off ......

Back to the Road Tanker ...... I shall start a list of Solent takers ....... ???????


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
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Re: Mmmmm ..... yes !

Oh dear - I reckon that could add £20 a year to the running costs of my boat.

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First of all, I can't say that I'm an expert but...

I investigated the opportunity of bulk storage of aviation fuel at a small airstrip. In our particular case this would have had the added benefit that we wouldn't need to keep refuelling at other airfields, the nearest of which was 15 minutes flying time.

To do it "properly" you need to have a bund underneath the storage vessel. A bund is a diesel-proof tank buried in the ground that will contain any spillage so that it doesn't contaminate the ground or get into the local water table.

An offer that did intrigue me was that one of the smaller fuel distributors would have given us a permanent loan of an old road tanker. This would not have been expected to be fully roadworthy but would have been driveable and would have been a more-than-adequate storage vessel. Many small airfields use them (and they're fun to operate too!). I doubt you'd need the full ouput delivery rate(!) but it would be easy to decant the fuel into jerry cans or similar.

As for fuel storage at home, there is a very small limit (domestic lawnmower use, etc.) beyond which you need to let the authorities know (the fireman will be grateful to know that you've got 5,000 litres of diesel fuel in a tank on your patio if your house ever catches fire...). This brings with it all the expected red tape and insurance declarations, etc. so probably isn't viable.

BTW, aviation fuel was costing us 98p per litre (bulk delivery of around 2000 litres minimum would have brought that down around 10p per litre, from memory). My aircraft would consume 29 litres an hour at a moderate cruise power setting (55% of max) and around 60 at high power settings (take off, and climb). Think yourselves lucky!

As has previously been stated, to a raggie this isn't really a huge setback, even if it may be a big rise in percentage terms. To a stinkie, it's going to question their conviction in what they do very hard (which can be no bad thing for all of us from time to time).

Lastly, if I was to pursue this for boating purposes I'd try to get an old fuel tanker and site it at a friendly commercial (or agricultural?) site convenient to my requirement (even if that means transferring by can). But, if you are a raggie, is it really worth it?

p.s. that nice Mr. TCM appears to know every money saving tip in the book - I'd bet he has an answer. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

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If you can have a fuel tank for an oil fired boiler at home with little or no complication, why not for red deisel - probably the same stuff anyway.

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Working around Oil Terminals and having experience of Greenpeace etc. I know about the spill-ways ...... the general rule is to be able to contain 50% of the tank contents, based on the premise that the tank is normally not full.

This is easy actually as it only means a concrete slab and sides around the tank .... best set into the ground so that it can be built up the side walls.

My thought was to site a road tanker suitably old and 'full' in a marina or other space near to user point - definitely NOT at home !!!

Anyway its a long way off and I'm sure someone will catch on and it'll get scuppered !!!!!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
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They are not quite the same product.

But point taken ..... but would the Excise people accept that the tank is there for boat and not other use ?


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
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How much for a tanker full ?

If we estimate an extra cost of 30 quid per person ..... raggies that is, and wow for a MB ...... maybe 500 quid for a MB ...........

A farm tank trailer at about 500 notes ...... say about 2000 litres ...... bulk buy at 20p a litre ......... thats - hang on where's m'plastic hand held brain - ..... 400 quid + tank at 500 quid ...... say a round thousand quid all in.

Now lets take our boaties ...... raggie at say 30 quids worth normally upped to about 90 quid now at pump prices .... the MB guy will be 500 quid upped to 1500 quid about !!!! (I just took figures of about 28p per litre now, increasing to about 80p later)

The immediate reaction in my mind is *@^> %# !!!!!!!

So question is ....... how much do you reckon you spend on Diesel now ? How much will you have to spend on diesel after 2007 ? Sobering thought !!!!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
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Re: How much for a tanker full ?

Red diesel is now classed as heating fuel for VAT purposes at 5%. What is the difference between red and heating fuel??

Is domestic heating fuel tax going to be raised to the full fuel tax or remain at 5%?

Would heating fuel work in a marine diesel? Could it be the same as the old - very old - petrol/parafin (two r's or two F's??) marine engines - as in an old Kelvin 44hp diesel in a pleasure boat I worked on about 30 years ago.

This old heap started on petrol until it was running for a minute or so, and then it was changed over to diesel, and the spark plugs grounded to stop the petrol cycle.

<hr width=100% size=1>regards,
Philip
 
Viability of Red diesel in Bulk ....

Some years ago I interested myself with the development costs of a marina.

One interesting costing I came up with on speaking to a nearby factory owner who was re-vamping access roads and parking, was that to provide said access and hard standing, clearing up afterwards and very basic landscaping, cost £2000 per parking space, on top of the price of the land.

Given that the project will have little appeal unless close to point of need, you will need to find a harbour facility that will rent a couple of spaces (for a road tanker) or one space for a static tank. THEY know how much space costs 'cos they publish a cost per foot for storeage ashore.

They will sensibly need to see some insurance if the tankage doesn't belong to them, and so will you given the cost of cleaning oil spills from old s/h tanks using oil booms down the river etc. and the cost of prosecution by the Environment Agency etc.

They will of course NOT be selling marine fuel themselves.

You will need to secure it, and with the majority of builders vans running on 'cherry', and carrying a Stilth saw in the back, a padlock through the handle will probably not be up to it, and someone in the co-operative is bound to leave it unsecured by accident, and someone else will forget to fill in the honesty sheet.

As you can see, my tank is definitely half empty on this idea, however if I ran a motor yacht and had my own private jetty it would probably be more than half full, but not for long because they can drink a tankful on a holiday cruise.

My fuel bill this year was under £25.00 and that included losing some at filter change time, and running the Mikuni at each end of the season.

I believe it is by no means certain that the fuel duty concession will be totally repealed in 2007 given the mild but growing lash back at European integration and policies.

I think it's a bit of a non-starter really.

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One jump ahead?

When I bought a litre from my chandler last week he said that HM Customs & Excise have just issued him with a sticker for his tank to the effect that it is not to be sold as engine fuel.

Not that I'd thought of trying it in my Perkins, but one likes to keep the options open.

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Re: Fuel Usage

Seeing your post fuel usage reminded me of the time I walked up to the fuel point at Lym YH at the beginning of the season with my 10 litre black can. I waited patiently by the pump until a 40 something foot MoBo finished filling up. 600 and odd litres it took.! Mobo looks at me and then at my little can, and then with a pained expression says " I suppose that'll last you all season" After a little thought I replied, " No, I shall probably need another one"

Regards

Dave D

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Re: Fuel Usage

Seeing your post fuel usage reminded me of the time I walked up to the fuel point at Lym YH at the beginning of the season with my 10 litre black can. I waited patiently by the pump until a 40 something foot MoBo finished filling up. 600 and odd litres it took.! Mobo looks at me and then at my little can, and then with a pained expression says " I suppose that'll last you all season" After a little thought I replied,
" No, I shall probably need another one"

Regards

Dave D

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It\'s a question ...... not a definite !!

I was posing the interesting thought to see what would be any pitfall / could it be done ??

I work in all sorts of Terminals and on ships etc. and know about the beaurocracy etc. and the lack of understanding of various departments ........

But work it out - it could be interesting exercise !!

<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
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tcm will probably have a few thousand litres in his boat tanks let alone storage!

generally on this subject I find it funnny that pepole even consider the private boat user etc etc. The only reason to maintain red diesel is to avoid committing to a general harmonisation of fuel prices accross Europe. If the goverment removes red it should be part of that objective - which is not of course in the ijnterests of any UK govenment (unless they could trade it for a complete get out on the CAP I suspect!

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Re: How much for a tanker full ?

Problem here is the names are not conclusive .....

Heating fuel can run from K-4 and other light end FUEL oils through to Kerosine.......... it is a term - NOT a designation of a single fuel standard.

Red Diesel on the other hand is a standard gasoil with a Red Dye and Yellow Marker added.

Unless you have a diesel / gasoil powered heating system at home - you will not have same product.

BUT - if you have an old diesel that is strong enough and has good compression - there is no reason why a low quality fuel
with a bit of 'spike' in it shouldn't run.

Out here in Baltic - you have to apply for a licence to get heating oil at a discount ..... and its 0.2% Sulphur Gasoil !! So runs in all diesels - boat, truck and car !!!! (Before anyone tells me - yes I know its a lot higher sulphur than ULSD at 50ppm, but it will run and as long as you run a good ULSD after - the sulphur residue should come out ........... but don't tell Greenpeace !!!!)


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
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