Red Diesel fiasco - what's the latest?

[vyv_cox]

Why is it inconvenient to Britons but not to Greeks? There is profit in it for somebody and no necessity to come to individual boats, fuel could be supplied at specific times. That's what happens in France, commercial users buy at fixed times and pay tax free prices. Not sure if there is any red diesel in France but I have seen duty free petrol being sold in this way.
It's never going to happen, UK is tied to red diesel and nobody in authority seems able to think outside the box.
And you are wrong about health and safety in Greece. it is more powerful than in UK but maybe applied sensibly? It's the legal side of culpability that's at fault in UK, doesn't happen elsewhere in Europe.

 

[maby]

It's probably only an issue for more remote areas. Down south, most of us buy our fuel from marinas and, if the EU force HMRC to ban the use of red diesel in leisure craft, I would expect that most marinas would switch to white diesel within a few weeks.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

A bunch of posts which show just how brainwashed you've all become. Britain has system and the system works perfectly well.The system has negligible impact on any country outside the UK, and has been in place for years.

Nothing is broken yet a bunch of freeloaders trying to justify their pointless jobs expect us to pay a fortune to install duplicate tanks, etc., to achieve compliance with an arbitrary set of rules they've dreamed that have no benefit to anyone. The whole thing is typical of the unnecessary garbage foisted on us all the time by all politicians but especially the EU. Hopefully the government will tell them to buggar off in no uncertain terms and it will be yet another nail in coffin for this group of parasitic nasties.

 

[gordmac]

Any one know why businesses such as farmers and fishermen are exempt from diesel fuel tax in the first place? I believe those using petrol claim tax back on that.

 

[maby]

A bunch of posts which show just how brainwashed you've all become. Britain has system and the system works perfectly well.The system has negligible impact on any country outside the UK, and has been in place for years.

Nothing is broken yet a bunch of freeloaders trying to justify their pointless jobs expect us to pay a fortune to install duplicate tanks, etc., to achieve compliance with an arbitrary set of rules they've dreamed that have no benefit to anyone. The whole thing is typical of the unnecessary garbage foisted on us all the time by all politicians but especially the EU. Hopefully the government will tell them to buggar off in no uncertain terms and it will be yet another nail in coffin for this group of parasitic nasties.

Hey, don't get me wrong - I would love us to leave the EU. But the fact remains that the current system is in direct contravention of the EU directive and if Brussels chooses to challenge it, HMRC will not be able to defend it. Is the UK government going to pay EU fines just to allow us leisure sailors to buy diesel from convenient sources? I very much doubt it.

 

[maby]

Any one know why businesses such as farmers and fishermen are exempt from diesel fuel tax in the first place? I believe those using petrol claim tax back on that.

'cos farmers and fishermen have a disproportionate influence in EU policy? Have you never had to battle your way through France past barriers built by farmers on the roads only to find that your ferry home is unable to leave port because of fishing boats blocking the harbour mouth?

 

[jtwebb]

I am puzzled that two points have not been mentioned. One is those of us in Marinas are not allowed to fill our boats from cans, hence we are stuck with the existing facilities. The other is the question of sulpher content and the impact of road fuel on marine engines, I do not really understand the implications so await clarification.

 

[maby]

I am puzzled that two points have not been mentioned. One is those of us in Marinas are not allowed to fill our boats from cans, hence we are stuck with the existing facilities. The other is the question of sulpher content and the impact of road fuel on marine engines, I do not really understand the implications so await clarification.

They have been discussed in depth in previous versions of this thread. You are quite right that most marinas discourage filling from cans - even if you have the energy to do it. Not sure how much of an issue this is - our marina, for example, already has a spare tank available for white diesel and has said they could be stocking in in just a few weeks if the demand was there - it currently isn't.

You'll hear plenty of people stating that road fuel will damage marine systems, but there seems to be very little evidence to support this. Almost every other country in Europe has been running marine leisure engines on road fuel for upwards of ten years now, and you don't see dozens of French, Belgian and Dutch yachts broken down along the Channel, do you?

 

[jtwebb]

True about french etc yachts but I did not know they used road diesel. I have seen comments about marine white diesel, must be wrong.

 

[maby]

True about french etc yachts but I did not know they used road diesel. I have seen comments about marine white diesel, must be wrong.

Well, there are theoretical issues with road diesel in older boats, but manufacturers have been building engines and systems to cope with it for ten years or more. Continental boats have been running on road fuel for at least five years, if not more - and that includes many older boats, so the issues certainly are not insuperable.

Road diesel does include bio-diesel additives which can make it more vulnerable to diesel bug - keep tanks clean and add diesel bug treatment. There is demonstrably nothing that cannot be managed - those who want to keep the red diesel concession use the perceived issues as justification.

 

[sailorman]

Well, there are theoretical issues with road diesel in older boats, but manufacturers have been building engines and systems to cope with it for ten years or more. Continental boats have been running on road fuel for at least five years, if not more - and that includes many older boats, so the issues certainly are not insuperable.

Road diesel does include bio-diesel additives which can make it more vulnerable to diesel bug - keep tanks clean and add diesel bug treatment. There is demonstrably nothing that cannot be managed - those who want to keep the red diesel concession use the perceived issues as justification.

The Dutch also "Have Older Boats / engines" too

 

[jordanbasset]

A bunch of posts which show just how brainwashed you've all become. Britain has system and the system works perfectly well.The system has negligible impact on any country outside the UK, and has been in place for years.

Nothing is broken yet a bunch of freeloaders trying to justify their pointless jobs expect us to pay a fortune to install duplicate tanks, etc., to achieve compliance with an arbitrary set of rules they've dreamed that have no benefit to anyone. The whole thing is typical of the unnecessary garbage foisted on us all the time by all politicians but especially the EU. Hopefully the government will tell them to buggar off in no uncertain terms and it will be yet another nail in coffin for this group of parasitic nasties.

Any one know why businesses such as farmers and fishermen are exempt from diesel fuel tax in the first place? I believe those using petrol claim tax back on that.

'cos farmers and fishermen have a disproportionate influence in EU policy? Have you never had to battle your way through France past barriers built by farmers on the roads only to find that your ferry home is unable to leave port because of fishing boats blocking the harbour mouth?

Have sympathy with all these viewpoints, people say the U.K. system is a problem but the E.U. system is no better. Why should not everyone pay the same rate in a specific country, whether commercial or private leisure user. As far a I am aware commercial lorries do not get a reduction in tax for diesel, indeed U.K. hauliers are often at a disadvantage as they pay more for their diesel in the U.K. because of tax.
So if the U.K. want to allow boat users to pay no tax or a lot of tax on fuel it should be down to the U.K. Government.
and is no business of the E.U.
Certainly in road diesel/petrol there are different tax rates across the E.U., why can't we have a similar situation for boats.

 

[mihtjel]

The addition of colourants to untaxed or reduced-tax gas oil or kerosene is covered by Council Directive 95/60/EC. Said directive has an exemption for Denmark, namely:

- Denmark may, provided that the goods remain subject to fiscal control, delay the addition of the marker until the moment of final retail sale, at the latest.

I'm sure a similar exemption could be negotiated for the UK, allowing smaller harbours/marinas to have a single tank with two pumps (or a single pump with 2 handles); dyed and white diesel. This would make it a lot less of a burden for the marinas, were the EU rules to be followed in the UK.

 

[uxb]

Easily solved, as is done on every island every day in Greece. There are very few marinas anyway and many of them do not have a fuel supply. Diesel fuel is supplied to fishing and leisure boats by small road tankers, owned and filled by filling stations. Using this system for white diesel would benefit the garage owners and could solve the nonsense of red diesel immediately.

Greeks paying tax?? I'm sorry, I can't believe this...there must be a fiddle somewhere.

 

[maby]

The Dutch also "Have Older Boats / engines" too

I think that they count as "continental boats", don't they?

 

[sailorman]

I think that they count as "continental boats", don't they?

Possibly, but not in the food dept

 

[maby]

Have sympathy with all these viewpoints, people say the U.K. system is a problem but the E.U. system is no better. Why should not everyone pay the same rate in a specific country, whether commercial or private leisure user. As far a I am aware commercial lorries do not get a reduction in tax for diesel, indeed U.K. hauliers are often at a disadvantage as they pay more for their diesel in the U.K. because of tax.
So if the U.K. want to allow boat users to pay no tax or a lot of tax on fuel it should be down to the U.K. Government.
and is no business of the E.U.
Certainly in road diesel/petrol there are different tax rates across the E.U., why can't we have a similar situation for boats.

The EU directives do not specify tax levels, but they do specify what classes of user can have access to reduced tax fuel. The UK government could slash fuel taxes for everyone and not get into trouble with the EU, but the directives do not permit the sale of reduced tax fuel to leisure sailors - we are required to pay tax at the same rate as users of private cars. I'm sure plenty of people would support an across the board reduction in fuel taxes, but the government finances would not support it.

 

[jordanbasset]

The EU directives do not specify tax levels, but they do specify what classes of user can have access to reduced tax fuel.

Which is my point, why? Seems to me it should be a matter for member countries to decide.
But if the E.U. are going to specify what classes of user have access to reduced tax fuel why do fishing boats and other commercial boats get as well as agricultural vehicles but commercial lorries do not, seems a complete nonsense and much more to do with the strength of lobbying groups than any reasoned argument.

 

[maby]

Which is my point, why? Seems to me it should be a matter for member countries to decide.
But if the E.U. are going to specify what classes of user have access to reduced tax fuel why do fishing boats and other commercial boats get as well as agricultural vehicles but commercial lorries do not, seems a complete nonsense and much more to do with the strength of lobbying groups than any reasoned argument.

As I said above : "'cos farmers and fishermen have a disproportionate influence in EU policy"

I'm not trying to justify it - I think the EU should be limited to a free trade area - just stating the situation. The UK government has signed up to directives which say we should not have access to "marked diesel" - the EU complaint is not about the tax levels, just about the colour of the stuff.

 

[sailorman]

Which is my point, why? Seems to me it should be a matter for member countries to decide.
But if the E.U. are going to specify what classes of user have access to reduced tax fuel why do fishing boats and other commercial boats get as well as agricultural vehicles but commercial lorries do not, seems a complete nonsense and much more to do with the strength of lobbying groups than any reasoned argument.

we have the RYA