Red Diesel can only be used in UK Waters!

[MystereMarcus]

Yesterday HMRC have published a draft legislation stating that as of 1st April 2012, all pleasure craft filling up with Red Diesel for use as fuel for propulsion will have to sign a declaration stating that it is for use in UK Waters only! It does however state that 'All purchasers will be made aware that if they travel outside UK waters they will be subject to the restrictions and prohibitions of other Member States'.
This does seem to signal that the UK will be happy for the rest of the EU to follow Belgium's lead!

Details here:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/drafts/pp-craft-tiin.pdf

 

[gjgm]

Yesterday HMRC have published a draft legislation stating that as of 1st April 2012, all pleasure craft filling up with Red Diesel for use as fuel for propulsion will have to sign a declaration stating that it is for use in UK Waters only! It does however state that 'All purchasers will be made aware that if they travel outside UK waters they will be subject to the restrictions and prohibitions of other Member States'.
This does seem to signal that the UK will be happy for the rest of the EU to follow Belgium's lead!

Details here:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/drafts/pp-craft-tiin.pdf

What colour diesel is it in Channel Isles?

 

[tompyn]

What colour diesel is it in Channel Isles?

It was white last time i was there??

 

[neale]

What colour diesel is it in Channel Isles?

From memory one of them pumps red and the other white. As they are outside of the EU they are fortunate enough to be able top do what they like. What happens if an Islander goes into the EU though I don't know.

 

[MystereMarcus]

That was my first thought, I think it is white (I'm sure someone will say for certain). If so Guernsey will be having even better sales than usual.

 

[MystereMarcus]

From memory one of them pumps red and the other white. As they are outside of the EU they are fortunate enough to be able top do what they like. What happens if an Islander goes into the EU though I don't know.

That's strange Neale, is there any difference in price?

 

[Geoffs]

What colour diesel is it in Channel Isles?

White, but I doubt we will have any trouble from CI, as they are not in EU anyway. Except, of course, we have to go through French waters to get to CI, so, in theory they could 'ave ya!

Also we will be declaring that we will stay inside UK waters (12 miles ?) if we fill up with red diesel.

So unless we purge our tanks of red, and can find a supplier of un marked fuel, no more trips outside UK!

 

[Beadle]

Does this mean that all other EU states can/will/must stop British flagged boats and check for red diesel anywhere at all outside British territorial waters?

If one is fined in a foreign port for having the wrong coloured diesel and you "do a runner"

What will the EU do about it.

Will they "arrest" you in international waters?

Will they seek (and get) extradition?

Why on earth do we put up with this nonsense

 

[neale]

So unless we purge our tanks of red, and can find a supplier of un marked fuel, no more trips outside UK!

At least we won't have to worry about eBorders

 

[Geoffs]

At least we won't have to worry about eBorders

Very true. UKBA scrapped anyway!

 

[AdeOlly]

Also we will be declaring that we will stay inside UK waters (12 miles ?) if we fill up with red diesel.
QUOTE]

No, that's not what it says. The new declaration is that we acknowledge we will be subject to other EU nations restrictions and prohibitions if we travel into their waters. No different to now in actual fact, as Belgium has shown.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Hmmm. I've got about 500l of red in the boat at the moment, and it's being trucked to France in a few weeks time. Sounds like the sensible thing to do might be to use it all up here before the boat goes...

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[longjohnsilver]

Also we will be declaring that we will stay inside UK waters (12 miles ?) if we fill up with red diesel.
QUOTE]

No, that's not what it says. The new declaration is that we acknowledge we will be subject to other EU nations restrictions and prohibitions if we travel into their waters. No different to now in actual fact, as Belgium has shown.

Agreed, just making us aware that there could be a different interpretation of the rules in other countries, ie Belgium.

And if you fill up in Guernsey, St Sampson it was definitely red in August last year. I understand that in Jersey it is white but quite a bit more expensive, as is `Boatworks in SPP, which may also be white.

 

[longjohnsilver]

Hmmm. I've got about 500l of red in the boat at the moment, and it's being trucked to France in a few weeks time. Sounds like the sensible thing to do might be to use it all up here before the boat goes...

Cheers
Jimmy

Jimmy my understanding of the French position is that red is only a problem if it's stored in containers, not in the main fuel tank.

 

[DAKA]

Also we will be declaring that we will stay inside UK waters (12 miles ?) if we fill up with red diesel.

So unless we purge our tanks of red, and can find a supplier of un marked fuel, no more trips outside UK!

I think.....

You dont need duty paid diesel in international waters.

Agreed while in French 12 mile waters you should have duty paid diesel in but they can not restrict passage for EU member states.

The easiest way round the problem is to head straight for the French fuel pontoon and put 30 gallons of duty paid diesel in for your onward passage through french waters keeping the receipt.

I have done this in the past several times and always been pleasantly surprised at the cost of duty paid marine diesel in France.

 

[boatmike]

Hmmm. I've got about 500l of red in the boat at the moment, and it's being trucked to France in a few weeks time. Sounds like the sensible thing to do might be to use it all up here before the boat goes...

Cheers
Jimmy

Having just sold a sailboat and bought my Aqua-Star and filled tanks on the delivery trip back to the Solent I currently have 900 litres! I had intended trips to France this year after my refit to prove everything before heading off to the French Canals and Med next year. Probably not a good idea now! Maybe a west country cruise to use it up and then Channel Islands?
What a total balls up! Will marinas now charge for white at £142 a litre or stick to Red at 60/40? If the former we will all be off to France to fill up. If the latter.....er we will all be off to France to fill up!!!! Either way I think St Peter Port is going to be full of MoBos this year!

 

[yesod]

Will marinas now charge for white at £142 a litre or stick to Red at 60/40?

if marinas switch to white, you can bet it won't be anywhere near road prices. that will encourage those who can to use jerry cans and refuel themselves with the risk of more spillage and contamination.

a total balls up to introduce this with little warning at a time when most vessels will have full tanks.

you have belgium and the netherlands to thank for this.

 

[MystereMarcus]

Also we will be declaring that we will stay inside UK waters (12 miles ?) if we fill up with red diesel.
QUOTE]

No, that's not what it says. The new declaration is that we acknowledge we will be subject to other EU nations restrictions and prohibitions if we travel into their waters. No different to now in actual fact, as Belgium has shown.

I fully agree that no one is being asked to declare that they won’t leave UK waters, what concerns me is the wording of the draft legislation that seems to indicate a change in stance of the UK Government. They are now saying ‘You are buying Red Diesel which is only legal in UK waters’ rather than the previous message of ‘We believe that duty paid Red Diesel is legal within the EU and will be fighting to prove this, just stay away from Belgium as they are jealous that they didn’t think of it’*.


* - My interpretation of government policy, please don’t try to quote this in a court of law.

 

[Geoffs]

Also we will be declaring that we will stay inside UK waters (12 miles ?) if we fill up with red diesel.
QUOTE]

No, that's not what it says. The new declaration is that we acknowledge we will be subject to other EU nations restrictions and prohibitions if we travel into their waters. No different to now in actual fact, as Belgium has shown.

I think that is what does say, see below.

OK so they have yet to define UK waters, but that must be based on 12 miles.

You will be declaring that the use of red is for UK waters only. Of course, it's doubtful it would be enforced if you leave UK waters, I would have thought.



Proposed revisions
Legislation will be introduced in Finance Bill 2012 to amend HODA section 14E. A new subsection will require the declaration to include an acknowledgement that the UK procedures for the use of red diesel in private pleasure craft do not affect any restrictions or prohibitions under the national laws of other Member States. The definition of relevant declaration in section 14(E)(8) will be amended to state that the heavy oil or bioblend is to be used only as fuel for propelling private pleasure craft within UK waters. A definition of United Kingdom waters will be added to section 14E(8).

 

[Robin]

This isn't so much a problem of whether the fuel is tax free, part tax free or fully taxed really, so much as it is the colour of the stuff and the fact that the dye is nigh on impossible to remove once in the system without a considerable amount of time money and hassle. Who cares (other than on the principle of it not being on a 'road' vehicle) what the tax is, the interesting bit is the total amount you have to pay not it's makeup.

The problem is going to be how to obtain fuel in quantity in the UK which is white and preferably not bio either. Cans for small yacht use is one thing, for bigger ones and mobos it is another, even if a) the local garage permits buying fuel in cans over a certain amount and b) the marina or harbour byelaws allow refuelling from cans anyway.

This could create a new kind of weekend milk run, instead of going for the duty free like in the old days, or the cheaper wine currently, it will be a quick trip over to fill up with white diesel because it is easier than messing around here.

What happens to UK fishing boats under this latest buggers muddle? Plenty of them call into foreign ports if the weather forces them to, even I think to sell some catch?