Real Differences Between Mass Produced and Quality Yachts

grumpy_o_g said:
Interesting that HR are being held up as the prime example of a quality blue water cruiser, with other scandie boats mentioned. If I were to really want to go Blue Water cruising (as opposed to just making the occasional long passage, such as a transatlantic) I would be looking at mostly French boats I think with Allures probably at the top of my list but others in there as well.
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Well said - it's a very brainwashed sailor who thinks Scandanavians make the best boats - not bad for chilly N waters but very inconvenient for warmer sunnier climes where many more sailing miles are put in.
Personally I'd rate Amels a step-change superior for round-the-world cruising than any H-Rs, however cognoscenti bow down to worship H-Rs.
EX-Spurts
 
grumpy_o_g said:
Interesting that HR are being held up as the prime example of a quality blue water cruiser, with other scandie boats mentioned. If I were to really want to go Blue Water cruising (as opposed to just making the occasional long passage, such as a transatlantic) I would be looking at mostly French boats I think with Allures probably at the top of my list but others in there as well.
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Good point. I just chose HR as they have smaller boats. Allures minimum size is the 39.9 I think.

Also I really just chose it for a price / value comparison.

French slightly cheaper than Scandi? Ie RM, Ovni, Allures etc?

I want to be able to single hand a bit if necessary so am thinking 34-36 ft. So Amel etc too big.

Whats a smaller Amel equivalent?! Ovni 365? (which I think is 40 foot anyway!!)
 
Boat choice is such a personal thing. What you buy will be dictated by your needs, tastes and personal financial circumstances at the time.

We had a £600 GP14 dinghy for which we felt great pride of ownership. I spent a lot of time and money 'fiddling about' with it. We did a lot of sailing over 10 active years, had huge amounts of fun and still own it.

Then the kids came along so we bought a 20 year old Leisure 23SL in 2001 for £6k, in the MAB category, spent a load of time and money bringing her up to date and felt great pride of ownership. Did a lot of sailing and had huge amounts of fun.

Then we found ourselves a few years later with a job coming to an end and a house to sell near the top of the market (pre-crash). We were lucky, saw an opportunity and bought the poshest boat we could in order to go live aboard for as long as we could. That was an Island Packet and it cost us about £200k, so probably in the upper market category being discussed here. We felt great pride of ownership, did a lot of sailing and had huge amounts of fun.

Was she worth the £200k? Definitely. Did we get more pride of ownership than our previous boats? No, same in all cases. Did we do more or less sailing? I would say the same, it was a different experience in each case, with different opportunities and experiences, each unique.

Each time we bought what we felt was the best for us at the time and within the budget available at the time. If we hadn't had the money available from the house sale, we would not have been able to afford an IP., in which case we would have bought something more modest, probably a smaller AWB, still felt pride of ownership and still gone sailing and had some fun.

I know why our boat cost us £200k, I see it every time we go on board, whenever I work on her and whenever we're out sailing. I don't waste time fretting over whether I should have bought a cheaper one, nor whether I would have greater pride of ownership, more sailing and more fun if I bought a £1m Oyster. Life's too short.
 
I did my YM on a Halberg-Rassy in Dartmouth.
As we were going through the ship's papers just before the exam, I found out the boat was about 12 years old.
I had thought it was a lot newer than that.
I am inclined to think it had worn a lot better than other charter boats I'd been on.
YMMV
 
pvb said:
Well, he would say that, wouldn't he? But, as we've seen, the hull (the main structural element) of a Hallberg Rassy isn't heavier than most AWBs. Isn't the truth of the matter that most boats are built "in excess of all structural demands"?
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Yes I would say they were but what is the safety factor? HR is is about 4x+. Other well known brands are much lower.

"Typically, engineers tend to use a factor
between 2 and 6, although factors of safety of 18 or
more
[5] have been used for very safety-critical
applications where there was considerable uncertainty
about loads or material strengths. "
http://www.gurit.com/files/document...ety_factors_in_composite_yacht_structures.pdf

+++
For a series production run of aircraft, it is economically
worthwhile to test a prototype to destruction. For a oneoff
yacht, this is generally not the case, so the structure
must be tested to a “proof” load that gives reasonable
confidence in the structure’s ability to support the
anticipated loads, without damaging it during testing.
This raises the question of what load to use for the proof
test. By defining the loads in terms of W1, W2, LIMIT
and ULTIMATE, the question is more easily answered.
 
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Jamesuk said:
Yes I would say they were but what is the safety factor? HR is is about 4x. Other well known brands are much lower.
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How do HR manage to make their hulls so much stronger than "other well-known brands" if they're actually lighter in weight? The answer can only be that they're not stronger.
 
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pvb said:
How do HR manage to make their hulls so much stronger than "other well-known brands" if they're actually lighter in weight?
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Which brands are your referring to?

I compare build quality on a basic assumption. If I jump up and down on a Bavaria 55 and the boat begins to make a bow wave I begin to think "poor boat quality" If I do the same on an HR or Oyster and nothing happens I think good quality. Privilege Yachts make boats that if you get a heavy person jump down on to a sugar scoop on the port side the stewardess on the starboard side springs off and ends up in the water (that was on a 65ft boat) ok they just get a "jump" not wet.

I jump onto a race boat from the dock and the boat starts to travel forward, I make sure I have my Drysuit, Life Jacket and AIS/GPS Beacon, well made boats but with awful safety factors.

HR still do it all by hand where as "other well-known brands" use computers and robots. Which method is better, only time will tell. Boats will be set up like computers soon. When you run aground someone in Sweden will call your phone and say "You just ran aground at 8 knots, please visit your nearest boat yard".

On a race boat "You just ran aground at 8 knots, we have called the coast guard and salvage team"

Generally speaking ALL YACHTS are just OK, after all they were made by a human so they will never be perfect.

Anyway, I will be at the boat show in London with a Naval Architect to ask the questions and make a note and write back. Fell free to join us Peter ;-) We can talk anchoring :-))))
 
Jamesuk said:
Which brands are your referring to?

I compare build quality on a basic assumption. If I jump up and down on a Bavaria 55 and the boat begins to make a bow wave I begin to think "poor boat quality" If I do the same on an HR or Oyster and nothing happens I think good quality. Privilege Yachts make boats that if you get a heavy person jump down on to a sugar scoop on the port side the stewardess on the starboard side springs off and ends up in the water (that was on a 65ft boat) ok they just get a "jump" not wet.

I jump onto a race boat from the dock and the boat starts to travel forward, I make sure I have my Drysuit, Life Jacket and AIS/GPS Beacon, well made boats but with awful safety factors.

HR still do it all by hand where as "other well-known brands" use computers and robots. Which method is better, only time will tell.
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Well, as the figures have been discussed in this thread already, I'd say that the Bavaria range is a good one to compare. Heavier hulls than HR, also hand laid-up, like HR. And HR don't "still do it all by hand", they use computer machined woodwork, machine varnished, just like Bavaria/Beneteau/Jeanneau/etc. Bavaria use computer-controlled milling machines to cut all the holes for fittings to millimetric accuracy, surely better than old manual techniques? The subjective opinion that HR boats are so much stronger is just that, a subjective opinion.
 
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pvb said:
Well, as the figures have been discussed in this thread already, I'd say that the Bavaria range is a good one to compare. Heavier hulls than HR, also hand laid-up, like HR. And HR don't "still do it all by hand", they use computer machined woodwork, machine varnished, just like Bavaria/Beneteau/Jeanneau/etc. Bavaria use computer-controlled milling machines to cut all the holes for fittings to millimetric accuracy, surely better than old manual techniques? The subjective opinion that HR boats are so much stronger is just that, a subjective opinion.
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If truth be told, HR Oyster and the rest are all production style boats. They all use off the shelf products. If you want a truely exceptional boat then head off down to Pendennis and have a custom boat made.

The HR is alright, but it is still a production boat - just like Oyster, Sunseeker and Princess. The people who crew them all think they have problems in build quality.

26,300KG HR 55
17,200kg Bavaria 56

I am surprised that you mention the HR is lighter? The HR55 is narrower and shorter. The Bavaria is wider longer and lighter?

http://www.hallberg-rassy.com/yachts/center-cockpit-boats/55/

http://www.bavariayachts.com/bavaria-cruiser-56.php

I would rather sail an HR55. If I didnt have the money Id LOVE a Bavaria 55. Although thinking about the kind of sailing I really enjoy, I would have the Bavaria 55. It is the Party boat for sure!!
 
Jamesuk said:
If truth be told, HR Oyster and the rest are all production style boats. They all use off the shelf products. If you want a truely exceptional boat then head off down to Pendennis and have a custom boat made.

The HR is alright, but it is still a production boat - just like Oyster, Sunseeker and Princess. The people who crew them all think they have problems in build quality.

26,300KG HR 55
17,200kg Bavaria 56

I am surprised that you mention the HR is lighter? The HR55 is narrower and shorter. The Bavaria is wider longer and lighter?

http://www.hallberg-rassy.com/yachts/center-cockpit-boats/55/

http://www.bavariayachts.com/bavaria-cruiser-56.php

I would rather sail an HR55. If I didnt have the money Id LOVE a Bavaria 55. Although thinking about the kind of sailing I really enjoy, I would have the Bavaria 55. It is the Party boat for sure!!
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This thread isn't about 55 ft boats. If you'd bothered to read the OP, you'd see that the question was about a Bavaria 33 versus a Hallberg-Rassy 342. The 342 hull is lighter - see post #22.
 
nauticalnomad said:
You can lay in the forward cabin on a Jan/Bav etc and see people walk past on the pontoon.. They are paper thin.
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What nonsense you write. I have the cut outs from the BT installation. The hull is just less than one inch thick at that part - hardly paper thin.
 
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roblpm said:
And i wonder if the other modern quality boats like HR etc are not now the same? Then again we will probably never find out as there dont seem to be many current owners of a hr 342 or 372 on here. I wonder why??!!
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I bought a new HR342 and love her. We all use different criteria when buying a boat, house, car or pair of shoes! I won't bore you with my reasons for going for this particular boat but readily accept value for money was not one of the criteria on my list.....it was a heart not head decision and I've never regretted it.

Other aspects of my life may seem at odds with my extravagant (crazy?) boat choice. Eg I'm probably the only HR owner who drives a 14yr old banger....Ford Puma....and I love her too! We all make idiosyncratic decisions. Live and let live, I love all boats
 
pvb said:
You won't. You'll suffer depreciation, albeit at a lower annual percentage rate than AWBs, but a lower percentage of a much higher price means you'll still lose a lot.
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I have never owned an HR or a Bav. But certainly my impression having long coveted an HR36 is that prices now second hand are still very close indeed to the prices when they were new.

Tranona said:
Now that reflects what you seem to be saying. Who are you to determine what "pride of ownership" is?
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JumbleDuck said:
I don't see how you can say that (a) a Bavaria owner would want pride of ownership or (b) a Bavaria owner would not get pride of ownership. Is there an official list somewhere which says which boats one is allowed to be proud of?
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Are you really trying to tell us that the average yottie with a choice between an HR and a Bav would not have more pride of ownership with the HR? Sure it might be irrational. It might be prejudice / snobbery if you want. But its real all the same.

KellysEye said:
>I went for the Bavaria 37. Almost identical dimensions to the HR372. The 372 is 500kg heavier, but its ballast is 2900kg versus 2000kg on the Bavaria, so the HR's basic hull weighs 400kg less than the Bavaria's. With its better ballast ratio, the HR372 has a taller rig and bigger sails. But it's £300K extra!

Halberg Rassy gives displacement and keel weight in Tons, displacement 7.5 tons, keel 2.9, Tons total 10.4 tons. If you convert Bavaria's KG to Tons you get what Bavaria calls lightweight displacement 7 tons, keel 2.08 Tons total 9.08, difference 1.32 Tons. The more the keel weight the better the boat will stand up to wind hence the bigger rig which should make the HR faster until hull speed is reached. As you say though more expensive.
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Archimedes said " Any object, wholly or partially immersed in a fluid, displaces a weight of fluid equal to its own weight." Or to put it another way, the displacement of a boat is its weight including its keel. So " displacement 7 tons, keel 2.08 Tons total 9.08" is nonsense. Its keel 2.08 tonnes, hull etc 4.92 tonnes, total 7 tonnes according to Bavarai.

In any event you are making the assumption that weight = quality. It doesnt. Its often cheaper to make heavy than it is to make light.
 
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birdseye said:
I have never owned an HR or a Bav. But certainly my impression having long coveted an HR36 is that prices now second hand are still very close indeed to the prices when they were new.
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Prices may be close to the original list price of a bare boat, but almost every boat you see will have had an eye-watering list of options added which will have raised the purchase price considerably. By the time you've added a battery charger, autopilot, wind instruments, depth sounder, log, radar, plotter, VHF radio telephone & antenna, refrigerator, radar reflector, etc, etc, the new price will be much higher.
 
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