Real Differences Between Mass Produced and Quality Yachts

birdseye said:
You do get some extra for your money but not 3 to 1. But you are missing a key point. For whatever reason you will get all your money back when you sell an HR. You wont do that on any other boat and certainly not a bav. you wont get pride of ownership either.

Maybe it is mostly sheer prejudice but that doesnt mean you should ignore it.
Click to expand...

Well this may be ok for baby boomers who have enormous amounts of capital from unearned and untaxed income from house price inflation but for mere mortals and the younger generation the depreciation argument is moot.

I might be able to afford a marine mortgage of 100k over 10 years but no way 300k. And I don't think they will give me an interest only mortgage on a boat??!!

This situation is only going to get worse as house prices increase even further meaning that many people will stretch to buy a house. So in fact I think these 35ft 300k boats will soon be unavailable!
 
pvb said:
You won't. You'll suffer depreciation, albeit at a lower annual percentage rate than AWBs, but a lower percentage of a much higher price means you'll still lose a lot.
Click to expand...

I agree, if buying new, but buy a used HR and you can get your (most of) money back. My first boat HR31 bought at 7 years old, £60k, sailed for 8 years, with largest repair expense, £200, sold for £60.5K.
 
Stork_III said:
I agree, if buying new, but buy a used HR and you can get your (most of) money back. My first boat HR31 bought at 7 years old, £60k, sailed for 8 years, with largest repair expense, £200, sold for £60.5K.
Click to expand...

Ok good stuff. So would be interesting to plot a depreciation curve for a hr from 15-25 years as opposed to an awb from new to 10.

Can't use your 7 year old hr as a comparison though as at 7 years i think it is still 2 times an awb!
 
birdseye said:
You do get some extra for your money but not 3 to 1. But you are missing a key point. For whatever reason you will get all your money back when you sell an HR. You wont do that on any other boat and certainly not a bav. you wont get pride of ownership either.
Click to expand...

I don't see how you can say that (a) a Bavaria owner would want pride of ownership or (b) a Bavaria owner would not get pride of ownership. Is there an official list somewhere which says which boats one is allowed to be proud of?
 
Stork_III said:
I agree, if buying new, but buy a used HR and you can get your (most of) money back. My first boat HR31 bought at 7 years old, £60k, sailed for 8 years, with largest repair expense, £200, sold for £60.5K.
Click to expand...

So that's depreciation of about £15,000- £17,000 ( methods of calculation vary) over the seven years after taking account of the insidious nature of inflation. Some less generous/ more pernickity than I woulkd want to add on the opportunity cost of that £60,000 invested in say, Consols. (insert tongue-cheek emoticon) or RBS shares.

Still a good result in my book. It would be an interesting exercise to tabulate with some hard/reliable data ( hah!) on low depreciation floaty things. Cornish Shrimpers spring to mind.

yrs aye

David
 
Stork_III said:
I agree, if buying new, but buy a used HR and you can get your (most of) money back. My first boat HR31 bought at 7 years old, £60k, sailed for 8 years, with largest repair expense, £200, sold for £60.5K.
Click to expand...

The general pattern for boats seems to be that they lose a lot as you sail them off the metaphorical forecourt (20%?) sink gently over the next five years (another 30%?), hold their value for ten years after that and then head down again, fast, probably as major stuff comes up for replacement.
 
roblpm said:
Well this may be ok for baby boomers who have enormous amounts of capital from unearned and untaxed income from house price inflation but for mere mortals and the younger generation the depreciation argument is moot.

I might be able to afford a marine mortgage of 100k over 10 years but no way 300k. And I don't think they will give me an interest only mortgage on a boat??!!

This situation is only going to get worse as house prices increase even further meaning that many people will stretch to buy a house. So in fact I think these 35ft 300k boats will soon be unavailable!
Click to expand...

Does make you wonder given the complete disconnect between wages and prices who will be buying these brand new £300k / 35 footers in 20 years time once all the boomers have popped their clogs, are there really that many Chinese / Russian millionaires who want something that looks 30 years out of date?
 
JumbleDuck said:
The general pattern for boats seems to be that they lose a lot as you sail them off the metaphorical forecourt (20%?) sink gently over the next five years (another 30%?), hold their value for ten years after that and then head down again, fast, probably as major stuff comes up for replacement.
Click to expand...

Reasonably recent second had boats can be a better buy than new if in good nick as new boat prices are for the basic boat whereas a used one may well be kitted out with lots of extra equipment.

My own boat in 1989 would have cost £68,195 incl. VAT. (I don't have the 1988 price which mine is) I paid £66,000 11 years ago which indicates a drop in value then of roughly £2,000 in 15 years.

However, I have spent roughly £20,000 with updates and extra gear. Previous owners also spent plenty on it as well as items such as cruising chute, windlass, furling genoa etc. were extras. Selling today they fetch £45k to £65k depending on condition and equipment level so, how does one calculate the depreciation in real terms?
 
rogerball0 said:
Does make you wonder given the complete disconnect between wages and prices who will be buying these brand new £300k / 35 footers in 20 years time once all the boomers have popped their clogs, are there really that many Chinese / Russian millionaires who want something that looks 30 years out of date?
Click to expand...

I forgot to mention the disappearance of final salary pensions as well!!!
 
JumbleDuck said:
The general pattern for boats seems to be that they lose a lot as you sail them off the metaphorical forecourt (20%?) sink gently over the next five years (another 30%?), hold their value for ten years after that and then head down again, fast, probably as major stuff comes up for replacement.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm thats not a great advert for buying a 15 year old quality boat then! Really want to be buying at 5 years, selling at 15. So need 2 * the budget of an AWB. OK I am off to search yachtworld! Maybe that 7 year old HR that I posted above is the way to go!
 
roblpm said:
Hmmmm thats not a great advert for buying a 15 year old quality boat then! Really want to be buying at 5 years, selling at 15. So need 2 * the budget of an AWB. OK I am off to search yachtworld! Maybe that 7 year old HR that I posted above is the way to go!
Click to expand...

Not quite so easy as that. The 15 year old "quality" boat may have been owned by a "no expense spared" owner with upgrades every time new models came on the market and may even have had the sails & rig replaced and decks refurbished. OTOH, it could of course be be real shed going cheap so you can afford to upgrade. If you buy the 5 year old quality boat now, don't forget to keep £30k in hand (at today's prices) to replace the teak deck, plus re-rig, replace sails etc during your ownership.
 
Having owned 3 Scandanavian built boats, the mystique of quality is precisely that. ie a myth. What you are paying for is the very expensive worker's compensation package.
 
GrahamM376 said:
Your question is a bit like why pay for a Landrover when a Fiat Panda could also be had with 4 wheel drive.
Click to expand...


You cannot really beat that reply. So I won't try :-))

But a word from the designer of Hallberg Rassy's (PS I have chopped our sections of the original email)

"Thank you for message. The terrible experience of Cheeki Rafiki shows the importance that awareness concerning precise structural details of the yacht you are sailing.

The Hallberg Rassy is built way in excess of all structural demands but I agree it is a good idea to know the boat you are sailing in detail.

Sincerely,

Germán Frers

So back to the OP, It is all about finding out what the safety factors are for the boat you wish to buy.
 
Last edited:
Jamesuk said:
You cannot really beat that reply. So I won't try :-))

But a word from the designer of Hallberg Rassy's (PS I have chopped our sections of the original email)

"Thank you for message. The terrible experience of Cheeki Rafiki shows the importance that awareness concerning precise structural details of the yacht you are sailing.

The Hallberg Rassy is built way in excess of all structural demands but I agree it is a good idea to know the boat you are sailing in detail.

Sincerely,

Germán Frers

So back to the OP, It is all about finding out what the safety factors are for the boat you wish to buy.
Click to expand...

Well, he would say that, wouldn't he? But, as we've seen, the hull (the main structural element) of a Hallberg Rassy isn't heavier than most AWBs. Isn't the truth of the matter that most boats are built "in excess of all structural demands"?
 
GrahamM376 said:
My own boat in 1989 would have cost £68,195 incl. VAT. (I don't have the 1988 price which mine is) I paid £66,000 11 years ago which indicates a drop in value then of roughly £2,000 in 15 years.
Click to expand...

£68,195 in 1989 would have been worth £110,000 in (says http://safalra.com/other/historical-uk-inflation-price-conversion/), using RPI for the intervening years, so in real terms the drop in value was £41,805, or 40%. That seems a little pessimistic: http://www.whatsthecost.com/cpi.aspx uses the CPI and givesthe 2033 value as £98,756, so only a loss of 33%.

I paid for my boat in 2009 almost exactly what she cost new in 1986 ... it sounds good, but even on the CPI figures that's a 50% drop.
 
>I went for the Bavaria 37. Almost identical dimensions to the HR372. The 372 is 500kg heavier, but its ballast is 2900kg versus 2000kg on the Bavaria, so the HR's basic hull weighs 400kg less than the Bavaria's. With its better ballast ratio, the HR372 has a taller rig and bigger sails. But it's £300K extra!

Halberg Rassy gives displacement and keel weight in Tons, displacement 7.5 tons, keel 2.9, Tons total 10.4 tons. If you convert Bavaria's KG to Tons you get what Bavaria calls lightweight displacement 7 tons, keel 2.08 Tons total 9.08, difference 1.32 Tons. The more the keel weight the better the boat will stand up to wind hence the bigger rig which should make the HR faster until hull speed is reached. As you say though more expensive.
 
michael_w said:
Having owned 3 Scandanavian built boats, the mystique of quality is precisely that. ie a myth. What you are paying for is the very expensive worker's compensation package.
Click to expand...

Just as, in the cases of small scale builders like Cornish Crabbers, GT and so on you are paying for grotesquely inefficient manufacturing processes. Compare the costs of a Morgan and a Mazda to see something similar.

pvb said:
Isn't the truth of the matter that most boats are built "in excess of all structural demands"?
Click to expand...

I should jolly well hope so. Factors of safety under 100% are generally frowned upon ...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top