Real Differences Between Mass Produced and Quality Yachts

roblpm said:
Beneteaus can't all be that bad

http://www.performanceboating.com.au/sun-fasts-and-the-transquadra-trans-atlantic-race/

Loads of sunfast 3200s and 3600s in the transquadra?

Did they all sink??
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No, they did not "all sink"... they were on the hard! :p

Seriously though, seeing all that damage on hulls that were only 8-10 years old makes one wonder what other surprises would be waiting round the corner. It wasn't a case of 'lots of blisters'; there were so many voids in the lay that, in some areas, it looked like a sponge. Then there was the question of what putting things right' would cost and if the end result would be 'acceptable'. If I were in the market I would have walked away.

Two friends that I have here are the local agents for Bennies and for Bavs (separately, of course). Both have sold loads of boats. Both tried to sell me one of theirs and I have sailed on both types. I am not too keen on doors that jam when the boat is heeled, on decks that feel spongy when I walk on them (I only displace 73-75 kilos). Neither am I keen on hulls that put up their backside when there is a gust and keep you on your toes for fear of broaching. They are OK for some mild racing (which I do not do) but are really at their best when cocktails are being served in the cockpit, back on the pontoon. For sure, length for length they have more room than there is on my boat, although how much of it is usable out in the waves is debatable.

I appreciate that 'there is more bang for the buck' or so it would appear. I have my own ideas and preferences; I let others have their own. It is not my intention to offend anybody who has a boat that is different from mine. We all enjoy what we have and long may we continue to do so. :)
 
PuffTheMagicDragon said:
No, they did not "all sink"... they were on the hard! :p

Seriously though, seeing all that damage on hulls that were only 8-10 years old makes one wonder what other surprises would be waiting round the corner. It wasn't a case of 'lots of blisters'; there were so many voids in the lay that, in some areas, it looked like a sponge. Then there was the question of what putting things right' would cost and if the end result would be 'acceptable'. If I were in the market I would have walked away.

Two friends that I have here are the local agents for Bennies and for Bavs (separately, of course). Both have sold loads of boats. Both tried to sell me one of theirs and I have sailed on both types. I am not too keen on doors that jam when the boat is heeled, on decks that feel spongy when I walk on them (I only displace 73-75 kilos). Neither am I keen on hulls that put up their backside when there is a gust and keep you on your toes for fear of broaching. They are OK for some mild racing (which I do not do) but are really at their best when cocktails are being served in the cockpit, back on the pontoon. For sure, length for length they have more room than there is on my boat, although how much of it is usable out in the waves is debatable.

I appreciate that 'there is more bang for the buck' or so it would appear. I have my own ideas and preferences; I let others have their own. It is not my intention to offend anybody who has a boat that is different from mine. We all enjoy what we have and long may we continue to do so. :)
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Hmmmm I think I didn't inherit my dads view that everything was better in the old days. There has to be some benefit from new cad design, new materials etc.

Maybe I will buy an RM instead. Then there cant be any problems with the grp. And they come in bright green. Awesome!!
 
roblpm said:
Ok so for those of you who have bought a 15 year old malo/hr etc what have you spent replacing worn out stuff :
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I bought a Hallberg-Rassy 352 at 5 years old, and kept it for 19 years. In the last 10 years I spent around £6K on electronics upgrades, around £2.5K on new rigging, around £5K on having the blue hull stripes sprayed with Awlgrip, around £500 on a new sprayhood, around £500 on a new calorifier, around £2.5K on an engine repair, around £3K on new sails, around £1K on new batteries, plus another thousand or so on bits and bobs I don't remember. So maybe £22-25K in the last 10 years. Not a huge amount. But the elephant in the room was the teak deck, which in my opinion was about 2 years away from needing replacing at a cost of around £30K.
 
pvb said:
I bought a Hallberg-Rassy 352 at 5 years old, and kept it for 19 years. In the last 10 years I spent around £6K on electronics upgrades, around £2.5K on new rigging, around £5K on having the blue hull stripes sprayed with Awlgrip, around £500 on a new sprayhood, around £500 on a new calorifier, around £2.5K on an engine repair, around £3K on new sails, around £1K on new batteries, plus another thousand or so on bits and bobs I don't remember. So maybe £22-25K in the last 10 years. Not a huge amount. But the elephant in the room was the teak deck, which in my opinion was about 2 years away from needing replacing at a cost of around £30K.
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Ok great stuff. So definitely no teak deck whatever happens! Not much spend either but the boat was only 5 years old when you got it.

Recently I have got in to the habit of buying new cars. Aha says everybody you are mad. Think of the depreciation. However low mileage and proper servicing then means 15 years of trouble free motoring until they are worth nothing.

But I suppose one would hope that a boat has been looked after.

5 years old hr/malo etc cost a fortune!!!
 
PuffTheMagicDragon said:
I have yet to see a mass-production boat "from new cad design" that comes close to a design by Holman & Pye.

I know; I'm biased! ;)
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You would probably rather have my mates mgb which is in pieces in his garage (well whats left of it after the rust) rather than my functional well engineered bmw that gets used every day and does over 50mpg?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What I really want is a Pogo 36 but people will tell me I can't sail to the Caribbean in it if I take anything apart from my toothbrush!!
 
roblpm said:
Ok great stuff. So definitely no teak deck whatever happens! Not much spend either but the boat was only 5 years old when you got it.
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The spend I mentioned was just in the last 10 years (so from 14 to 24 years old), and only the bits I remember!

But anyone buying a 10-15 year old boat with a teak deck has to be prepared for future expense. Fake teak is increasingly popular, and is now being fitted to superyachts.
 
Just_sayin' said:
That's interesting. You're the chap who said that all the Bavaria owners that you had met said they wished they'd bought, er, your boat!
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Stop twisting words, I said I had met a couple who would have preferred a Moody - not my particular boat. Quite a common type of comment and one I've also made - wish I could justify buying an AMEL but it would deplete savings too far.
 
The whole question and responses are full of prejudices. What we are talking about is 2 different aspects of a boat. Firstly it's design. ie its hull shape rig weight etc. This can be for ocean crossing or esturay crtuising and they are different to a degree. The next though not completely separate is the actual build. Quality in our language has 2 meanings.
Thhe first as related to Quality Assurance is a standard of build where there are no stuff ups. In other words the customer gets exactly what he expects and the builder puts out exactly what he inteneded to build. Be it cheap or expensive. The other meaning of quality is perhaps described as Rolls Royce or no expense spared.
Now regarding Quality Assurance manufacturers go to a lot of trouble to get quality because anything else costs them in bad name and warrantyclaims. The Japanese with their cars 40 years ago proved this and shook up the rest of the car industry.
Now there is no doubt that the more of a product you build the better your chances of firstly getting a design right and secondly of getting a method of build right for cheapest production. So CAD design and mass production really do work to save money.
Unfortunately while mass production saves money it also dictates fewer variations in design.
So we get to the real problem of the so called AWB. They are designed for the biggest market which seems to be the charter market.
Now us owners as idividuals have all sorts of priorities and demands for our boat which don't fit with mass production. Hence the prejudices.
Now I have had my little boat so long that I have made it what I want. Or it has made me want what it gives. either way we are satisfied.
In some ways I would love the slickness of a AWB. After all I drive a very common mass produced car which I car which I actual admire. Yes modern is good.
My main experience was with a nearly new Beneteau a friend bought. It was lovely but quite slow around the buoys racing. He bought it to do a race/rally from Fremantle to Bali
which he did and sailed it back successfully. Then sold it. He races a dinghy now.
Anyway it is more about the type of boat you want for what price than one is better than another. olewill
 
GrahamM376 said:
Stop twisting words, I said I had met a couple who would have preferred a Moody - not my particular boat. Quite a common type of comment and one I've also made - wish I could justify buying an AMEL but it would deplete savings too far.
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Oh dear. Selective memory I guess.

28/6

Here in Leixeos, in common with most marinas there are just 2 Moodies and maybe 12 Bavs. Strange that many Bav liveaboards we've met say "I wish we had a Moody" but, I've never heard anyone say the opposite
 
"As for seeing through Fibreglass , give away is in its name "glass " it is see through ,opacity is dependant on additives that that reduce it , ie coloured pigments etc , which prob reduce strengthly slightly ."

I don't know what people mean when they say you "can see through it". I agree with the above statement because I have laid up my own yacht hull and down in the keel where the lay-up is 1 1/2 inch thick it lets light in.................. Of course if you use the correct type of resin it is possible to make your own f/g translucent deck hatches
 
We find ourselves with a polarised market .... the economic crisis hit the mid market buyers hardest? (ETAP, Sadler)
Following the logic that mass produced boats offer better value are we surprised one of them isn't exploring the gap.
I guess the closest is Hanse using Moody as their premium brand, although I understand the production process is rather different.

Do we think there is a market for
1/ A more seaworthy boat from a mainstream manufacturer with a simple well made interior, less radical stern and a decent keel
2/ A premium edition of a standard production boat with a better quality interior and a few more hand holds

Unfortunately, my requirements and preferences do reside in the mid market
1/ I prefer the aesthetics of modern boats with light airy interiors to traditional quality boats with tart boudoir interiors
2/ I most certainly don't want exterior decking to maintain
3/ I see "quality" in mass production but am put off by non durable interiors - especially when they are showing signs of wear at the boat show.
I really liked the Hunter approach where the galley and heads were GRP and contributed to structural rigidity

Interestingly, modern premium production motorboats are doing just fine
 
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fastjedi said:
Interestingly, modern premium production motorboats are doing just fine
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Maybe looking at different types of purchaser and their earning power. I for one can afford to sail but although I could buy one, could not afford the ongoing cost of fuel for a large motorboat, even a 13.5m Sunseeker Camargue drinks 130L/hr, bigger ones over 400L/hr.
 
roblpm said:
At risk of alienating some traditionalists I would like people's opinions on what is the real difference between say a Bavaria Cruiser 33 and a Hallbergh Rassy 342.

I will find the prices later but I think it may be 3 to 1.

When I compare on sailcalc the displacement etc are pretty similar.

So here we go:

Mahogony interior............... I don't want one!!!
Lead keel .......................... Maybe an option on some AWBs?
Tankage................. but I read that at least water ought to be kept in bottles for an ocean crossing due to potential contamination issues.
Fittings are the same??

So some of the difference in price must be from efficiencies in mass production.

In the good old days MABs had long keels, a seakindly motion etc. But to my unexpert eye a HR 342 or 372 is now medium displacement etc.

So why not buy an AWB for essentially its hull and upgrade it? Then you are starting new.

I just bought a 1994 boat and have probably spent 50% of its purchase price on new sails, prop, etc etc

So what is the best AWB hull??!!
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You do get some extra for your money but not 3 to 1. But you are missing a key point. For whatever reason you will get all your money back when you sell an HR. You wont do that on any other boat and certainly not a bav. you wont get pride of ownership either.

Maybe it is mostly sheer prejudice but that doesnt mean you should ignore it.
 
Tranona said:
Now that reflects what you seem to be saying. Who are you to determine what "pride of ownership" is?
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+1

Snobbery. Many people are proud of their boat whatever the value or size and why not? It may have taken years of saving and many hours work and to them it's worth far more than what you or I may own.
 
And there we have it. It all comes down to brand snobbery.

It's why people wear Gant shirts and BOSS suits where M&S clothes are just as good, drive Mercs and BMWs where Fords and Vauxhalls do the job just as well, shop in Waitrose and John Lewis, etc....

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with this, but just suggesting that's why people buy brands. It's all about "perceived quality" and how one wants to be viewed within their social circle. If you're not bothered about what other people in the marina think, then an AWB will do the job fine.
 
Bobc said:
And there we have it. It all comes down to brand snobbery.

It's all about "perceived quality" and how one wants to be viewed within their social circle. If you're not bothered about what other people in the marina think, then an AWB will do the job fine.
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It's not just the boats with some people, they must have matching gear as well, particularly noticeable around the Solent. Some of them even wear their "Sunday best" when polishing the odd spec of dust off and look in horror at the state of people like me when we crawl out of the locker with a bunch of tools - "oh! I pay a man to do that".
 
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