Real Differences Between Mass Produced and Quality Yachts

[roblpm]

Found it!!

This guy Jeff seems to know what he is talking about.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/3174-what-determines-coastal-cruiser.html

Well he says that modern offshore cruisers weigh the same as coastal cruisers which is what I was pointing out. Rounding off corners and adding handholds could surely be done to a mass production boat.

He ends up by saying dehler make nice offshore boats. Some on here would include them in the awb never go out in anything above a force 3 category!!

 

[pvb]

Ok.

But noone has answered my questions. Just general HR is better than Bavaria........

The weight of the latest hallberg rassys is no different to the awbs? (unless I am wrong)

I think the arguments so far refer to older HRs or the like?

So is the hull layup completely different on a modern HR to a Bavaria??

Landrovers are mass produced so get economies of scale. So the comparison is not valid. There doesn't seem to be an equivalent in the boat building industry??

So is everyone saying there is no option to buying ridiculously expensive Rustler, HR etc to get a good quality hull whilst paying for an interior fit for Buckingham Palace and a massive premium for the small run nature of the build???

As usual, there's been a lot of rubbish posted about "heavy" and "solid". The reality is that the boats you mentioned, Bavaria 33 and HR342, are about the same displacement (5200kg vs 5300kg respectively), identical in beam, and the HR is about a foot longer. But the HR has 1950kg ballast, versus 1300kg for the Bavaria. So, take that out of the equation, and the Bavaria's hull weighs 4000kg, versus only 3350kg for the HR342. Obviously, the HR's hull lay-up isn't heavier than the Bavaria's, so it's not likely to be any stronger.

Bavarias are built on a hugely sophisticated and automated production line. The hulls are laid up by hand, but using pre-cut sections of mat and rovings, computer-designed to maximise strength, and in a temperature/humidity controlled hall to ensure optimum quality. Indeed, ask a marine surveyor whether he's experienced osmosis problems or hull problems with Bavarias, and he's almost certain to say no.

What you get with the HR342 is better quality teak, and more of it - including a teak deck (which must weigh a bit, further reducing the actual hull weight). You'll get nicer interior woodwork, and nicer upholstery. You'll get a more exclusive boat, which may well hold its value fairly well. You'll certainly get a better buying experience, and superior pride of ownership. Otherwise, you'll get much the same as in the Bavaria; Selden rig, Volvo Penta engine, decent Lewmar/Harken/etc gear.

After 19 years of ownership, I sold my HR this year and bought a new Bavaria. I've crawled all over it, looked in all the hidden spaces, and I can honestly say it's extremely well built. The fit and finish throughout is superb, reflecting a highly sophisticated production engineering system. In many ways, Bavaria are closer to the concept of car manufacturing than boat building. As you can imagine, I wondered whether to buy another HR, as they are gorgeous boats, but frankly I couldn't see that the extra niceties were really worth an extra £300K.

 

[roblpm]

As usual, there's been a lot of rubbish posted about "heavy" and "solid". The reality is that the boats you mentioned, Bavaria 33 and HR342, are about the same displacement (5200kg vs 5300kg respectively), identical in beam, and the HR is about a foot longer. But the HR has 1950kg ballast, versus 1300kg for the Bavaria. So, take that out of the equation, and the Bavaria's hull weighs 4000kg, versus only 3350kg for the HR342. Obviously, the HR's hull lay-up isn't heavier than the Bavaria's, so it's not likely to be any stronger.

Bavarias are built on a hugely sophisticated and automated production line. The hulls are laid up by hand, but using pre-cut sections of mat and rovings, computer-designed to maximise strength, and in a temperature/humidity controlled hall to ensure optimum quality. Indeed, ask a marine surveyor whether he's experienced osmosis problems or hull problems with Bavarias, and he's almost certain to say no.

What you get with the HR342 is better quality teak, and more of it - including a teak deck (which must weigh a bit, further reducing the actual hull weight). You'll get nicer interior woodwork, and nicer upholstery. You'll get a more exclusive boat, which may well hold its value fairly well. You'll certainly get a better buying experience, and superior pride of ownership. Otherwise, you'll get much the same as in the Bavaria; Selden rig, Volvo Penta engine, decent Lewmar/Harken/etc gear.

After 19 years of ownership, I sold my HR this year and bought a new Bavaria. I've crawled all over it, looked in all the hidden spaces, and I can honestly say it's extremely well built. The fit and finish throughout is superb, reflecting a highly sophisticated production engineering system. In many ways, Bavaria are closer to the concept of car manufacturing than boat building. As you can imagine, I wondered whether to buy another HR, as they are gorgeous boats, but frankly I couldn't really see that the extra niceties were really worth an extra £300K.

Ok so here is a fact:

Bavaria 33 hull more heavily laid up than HR342

I wasn't particularly interested in these 2 boats but as prv posts they are equivalent in overall weight.

So ballast ratio is less on the bavaria.

Any offers for a mass builder that offers lead keels as an option and a slightly higher ballast ratio?

I can live without teak!!!!

Which Bavaria did you buy??

Tgis conversation is going to be moot in 20 years time as there is going to be a choice between a new awb or a 30 year old quality boat. The total annual sales of rustler, hr, najad, malo etc must be down to the low hundreds??

 

[cmedsailor]

Would you decide on which boat to buy just by looking at a brochure?

One is a picture of my boat (beneteau oceanis 361 on the left). The other on the right is a brochure picture of my dreams boat, a halberg rassy 412!

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

"

prob all shit built bavs like mine

still thats some picture you evoke there !

......

As for seeing through Fibreglass , give away is in its name "glass " it is see through ,opacity is dependant on additives that that reduce it , ie coloured pigments etc , which prob reduce strengthly slightly .

a

Actually they were Bendytoys, one eight and the other ten years 'old'. When the power washer was through it looked as if had snowed around the cradles. It seemed to me that there was not enough resin to soak the fibres properly and both hulls had a myriad voids in the lay-up.

I agree about the pigments; IMHO there should be no pigmented resins (including the gelcoat) below the waterline.

 

[roblpm]

One is a picture of my boat (beneteau oceanis 361 on the left). The other on the right is a brochure picture of my dreams boat, a halberg rassy 412!

So what is the sensible alternative to the 412??!!

You obviously aren't convinced by my argument.

There just has to be a better way than buying a 20 year old quality boat!!!!!

 

[jerrytug]

Who designed the boat? A faceless accountant twiddling with a computer, or Ray Wall, Colin Archer, Mr Van de Stadt..etc etc?

 

[Tranona]

Ok.

But noone has answered my questions. Just general HR is better than Bavaria........

The weight of the latest hallberg rassys is no different to the awbs? (unless I am wrong)

I think the arguments so far refer to older HRs or the like?

So is the hull layup completely different on a modern HR to a Bavaria??

Landrovers are mass produced so get economies of scale. So the comparison is not valid. There doesn't seem to be an equivalent in the boat building industry??

So is everyone saying there is no option to buying ridiculously expensive Rustler, HR etc to get a good quality hull whilst paying for an interior fit for Buckingham Palace and a massive premium for the small run nature of the build???

You have highlighted the challenge for the "quality" brands. It is quite easy to see the differences between the two types, although more difficult than in the past. The challenge is to justify the significant price differential. Clearly very few people can which is why the "quality" boats sell in small numbers each year rather than the 00's sold by the mass producers.

There are always people who will justify to themselves the additional expenditure, and in many cases they do not "lose" because there is a strong market for used examples which sell at less than new price - and in the recent past because of inflation and changes in currency values the price of a used say 4 or 5 year old boat is substantially less than a new one - although not necessarily much less than the original new cost. Good market for anybody building 4 year old boats at a price of 70% or so of a new boat!

For the buyer who does not value the subtle differences, a mass produced boat is a viable alternative at typically half the price. Functionally they fulfill the role they were designed for, and despite what the doom mongers say, they do not fall apart. If you look at, say 20 year old boats, you can see real horrors or well kept examples irrespective of whether they were "quality" or mass produced when new. Of course some people will say their "old" boats are "better" but again you can see good and bad examples of all types, and those with "good" old boats may claim it is because they started off better rather than they have been looked after better.

 

[Finbar]

I have sailed Swedish yachts and chartered the usual French and German boats and found all fine to sail within their own parameters. I had an interesting experience in a ten year old Bavaria 36 on charter in the Canaries. On passage and down below where the kettle was on for tea, I noticed a strong smell of gas. Knocked off the supply at the bottle, and investigated later. That evening in port, gas could be heard hissing somewhere. On investigation which involved taking off a panel at the aft end of the port rear cabin we found the leak. The exhaust hose anti-siphon loop was held up by a steel clip in the lazarette. The clip was mild steel enclosed in plastic and had rusted through, allowing the hose to fall down and bear against the copper gas pipe, which it had worn through. A lucky escape! However I would be nervous of older Bavarias and would certainly check out this area in any further charter. In my view a clear example of engineering down to a price. Mild steel should not have been used, plastic coated or not. It begs the question of what other corners have been cut.

 

[roblpm]

Actually they were Bendytoys, one eight and the other ten years 'old'. When the power washer was through it looked as if had snowed around the cradles. It seemed to me that there was not enough resin to soak the fibres properly and both hulls had a myriad voids in the lay-up.

I agree about the pigments; IMHO there should be no pigmented resins (including the gelcoat) below the waterline.

Beneteaus can't all be that bad

http://www.performanceboating.com.au/sun-fasts-and-the-transquadra-trans-atlantic-race/

Loads of sunfast 3200s and 3600s in the transquadra?

Did they all sink??

 

[Tranona]

Who designed the boat? A faceless accountant twiddling with a computer, or Ray Wall, Colin Archer, Mr Van de Stadt..etc etc?

Actually most modern boats are designed by highly qualified naval architects and their teams using sophisticated design tools, rather than single individuals using paper and pencil - and often getting it wrong!

 

[roblpm]

I have sailed Swedish yachts and chartered the usual French and German boats and found all fine to sail within their own parameters. I had an interesting experience in a ten year old Bavaria 36 on charter in the Canaries. On passage and down below where the kettle was on for tea, I noticed a strong smell of gas. Knocked off the supply at the bottle, and investigated later. That evening in port, gas could be heard hissing somewhere. On investigation which involved taking off a panel at the aft end of the port rear cabin we found the leak. The exhaust hose anti-siphon loop was held up by a steel clip in the lazarette. The clip was mild steel enclosed in plastic and had rusted through, allowing the hose to fall down and bear against the copper gas pipe, which it had worn through. A lucky escape! However I would be nervous of older Bavarias and would certainly check out this area in any further charter. In my view a clear example of engineering down to a price. Mild steel should not have been used, plastic coated or not. It begs the question of what other corners have been cut.

Barry

Quite.

But I am suggesting spending 100k on upgrading a 100k boat instead of buying a 300k one.

That could include redoing the gas installation. (and handholds as I suggested earlier)

Obviously the resale value would be zero but for myself this would be a lifetime purchase.

 

[KellysEye]

> Real Differences Between Mass Produced and Quality Yachts

The difference is mass produced AWBs are designed for coastal cruising quality yachts, more heavily built, are designed for offshore and long distance sailing. It is true that AWBs cross the Atlantic but many are on an Atlantic circuit and not many circumnavigate, a large percentage of those are Aluminium and Steel according to a NZ survey of boats passing through.

Also bear in mind also that AWB's were designed with large aft cabins to attract women into sailing to sell more boats and it was very successful. Car manufactures did a similar thing with mirrors on the sun visors and places to store a handbag. BA had a different strategy, they were always promoting their planes then Saatchi and Saatchi told them they were flying people not planes. A blurry example of it is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAcBsSzjiUo

 

[pvb]

I can live without teak!!!!

Which Bavaria did you buy??

I can too! Mindful of the long-term problems of teak decks, I specified Duradeck - a fake teak, made by Wolz Nautic. It looks realistic, doesn't wear out, is easy to clean, and has reasonable grip.

I went for the Bavaria 37. Almost identical dimensions to the HR372. The 372 is 500kg heavier, but its ballast is 2900kg versus 2000kg on the Bavaria, so the HR's basic hull weighs 400kg less than the Bavaria's. With its better ballast ratio, the HR372 has a taller rig and bigger sails. But it's £300K extra!

 

[roblpm]

> Real Differences Between Mass Produced and Quality Yachts

The difference is mass produced AWBs are designed for coastal cruising quality yachts, more heavily built, are designed for offshore and long distance sailing. It is true that AWBs cross the Atlantic but many are on an Atlantic circuit and not many circumnavigate, a large percentage of those are Aluminium and Steel according to a NZ survey of boats passing through.

Also bear in mind also that AWB's were designed with large aft cabins to attract women into sailing to sell more boats and it was very successful. Car manufactures did a similar thing with mirrors on the sun visors and places to store a handbag. BA had a different strategy, they were always promoting their planes then Saatchi and Saatchi told them they were flying people not planes. A blurry example of it is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAcBsSzjiUo

More heavily built? In what way? Not the hull I think. Maybe the rigging? More teak inside? See prv posts about hr 342 and 372 weights vs bavaria. I think this was true in the old days but no longer.

 

[Finbar]

I bought a 12 year old Malo myself on the basis I would prefer quality engineered in from the start. She came almost as good as new, and is very well built where it matters as well as nicely finished internally, and is a good passage maker. The Ben/Bav Bavarias etc are fine for their purpose, but I would not see the point in spending substantial money trying to upgrade an old one.

 

[pvb]

Actually most modern boats are designed by highly qualified naval architects and their teams using sophisticated design tools, rather than single individuals using paper and pencil - and often getting it wrong!

Indeed, the current Bavaria Cruiser line is designed by Farr; current Hallberg Rassy boats are designed by German Frers. Both highly respected.

 

[roblpm]

I can too! Mindful of the long-term problems of teak decks, I specified Duradeck - a fake teak, made by Wolz Nautic. It looks realistic, doesn't wear out, is easy to clean, and has reasonable grip.

I went for the Bavaria 37. Almost identical dimensions to the HR372. The 372 is 500kg heavier, but its ballast is 2900kg versus 2000kg on the Bavaria, so the HR's basic hull weighs 400kg less than the Bavaria's. With its better ballast ratio, the HR372 has a taller rig and bigger sails. But it's £300K extra!

In fact one of the best things about my current Parker 275 is the fact it has no external wood at all. I want to go sailing, not varnishing! My dad had an eventide when we were growing up. But he liked fiddling with boats better than sailing!!

 

[pvb]

See prv posts about hr 342 and 372 weights vs bavaria.

Ahem... pvb.

 

[jwilson]

More probably 10 - 20 weeks.

I'd not knock the AWB, designed for the average yottie - occasional weekend sails, marina berthed with lots of room to show off to friends.Vice-free handling, quite high quality deckgear, electrics. I'd never try and compare a Bavaria with an HR - however the early Bavarias were well-built, easy handled boats. In their pursuit of the French many corners have had to be cut.
Of course all have been pursuing the mass charter market.
I speak as one who's worked on many AWBs but have a British-built and designed boat which I wouldn't consider swapping for a BavBenJan OR for any HR.

Yes - AWBs have corners cut to save money, more and more these days, but they are generally quite well engineered and more than strong enough for 99.9% of sailors actual usage. For the one in a thousand who actually wants to go to remote places in seriously heavy weather, they are the wrong boat.

The one bit I disagree with you is re "Vice-free handling" - yes when manouevring under power in tight spaces they are good, but under sail they almost all suffer from "double-aft-cabin-sterns" which when combined with relatively low ballast ratios are the cause of the rounding-up in a gust effect. My Jeanneau sails very well for a spacious cruiser, EXCEPT in gusty conditions. It's not the wind strength that is the problem, reefed down she will get from A to B in anything I choose (these days) to sail in, but you have to reef for the gusts, meaning that in gusty wind you are either underpowered a lot of the time, or have to play the main constantly - not easy if singlehanded. In my old narrow long-keeler you reefed for the light bits, and just carried on heeled a bit more in the gusts. She would track on happily even heeled 45 degrees with water washing down the sidedecks and almost coming into the cockpit. The modern Jeanneau steers beautifully until heeled maybe 16 degrees, but one or two more degrees heel and you have lost control. Not sure of the exact angle but it's pretty low....

Nevertheless on the whole I prefer the very civilised modern boat.