Reactive resins, Coppercoat?

[NUTMEG]

Following on from a recent thread about a new copper based anti fouling by Reactive Resins I emailed them with some questions. I had a prompt and helpful reply, part of which is reproduced below.

This reply led me to wonder if it goes some way to explain why Coppercaot seems to work well for some but not others.

"Hi Stephen,

Drying out and or fresh water is unlikely to have any detrimental effect on
Synergy.

The only problem copper antifoulings have with mud is when it is stagnant
and contaminated with sulphur dioxide. This reacts with copper and turns it
jet black. You will know if sulphur dioxide is present as it smells of
rotten eggs.

If you have any more questions you can mail me at".

My boat spends most of her time sitting in black mud, does anyone have experience of east-coast mud and copper based anti fouling coatings?

 

[VicS]

Following on from a recent thread about a new copper based anti fouling by Reactive Resins I emailed them with some questions. I had a prompt and helpful reply, part of which is reproduced below.

This reply led me to wonder if it goes some way to explain why Coppercaot seems to work well for some but not others.

"Hi Stephen,

Drying out and or fresh water is unlikely to have any detrimental effect on
Synergy.

The only problem copper antifoulings have with mud is when it is stagnant
and contaminated with sulphur dioxide. This reacts with copper and turns it
jet black. You will know if sulphur dioxide is present as it smells of
rotten eggs.

If you have any more questions you can mail me at".

My boat spends most of her time sitting in black mud, does anyone have experience of east-coast mud and copper based anti fouling coatings?

pity about their chemistry !

They of course mean hydrogen sulphide not sulphur dioxide. .

 

[EwanClark]

All anti-fouls work at their best when used in deep-water moorings. Unfortunately there is no such thing as an anti-foul that is specifically designed for use on a drying mooring or a mud berth. At the end of the day they are anti-foul coatings and not anti-mud coatings, so sometimes they get covered in mud and then marine life can grow on or in that. The mud can have the effect of masking the anti-foul, rendering it less powerful than would usually be the case. But of course, this largely depends on the consistency and chemical composition of the mud in the berth in question.

Of course, this effects all anti-fouls. In terms of the coating getting muddy and being rendered less effective than normal, no one particular anti-foul product is hugely better than any other.

However, many perceive the advantage of Coppercoat over conventional anti-fouls being that it is physically much harder and abrasion resistant (as it is a metal-rich epoxy resin, not just a simple paint). Consequently not only can it withstand the rigours of settling on the mud repeatedly, but also it can withstand being regularly cleaned. Normal anti-foul paint is quite soft, so can wear away as the boat settles, and can wear away when the coating is cleaned. Consequently with Coppercoat, as/when/if your boat becomes dirty, feel free to simply scrub it clean.

So while all anti-foul manufacturers prefer to see their products used on boats kept in deep water, Coppercoat still has a clear advantage over standard paint systems. And naturally it will still last for far longer than a conventional paint system.

 

[EwanClark]

This reply led me to wonder if it goes some way to explain why Coppercaot seems to work well for some but not others.

It does amuse me that Reactive Resins talk about the inconsistencies in the performance of copper epoxy ant-fouls. They are very careful not to mention Coppercoat. Why? Because the inconsistencies refer to their own failed systems, such as CopperGuard and CopperPlus!

That said, we all appreciate that fouling rates vary from place to place and year to year, so all anti-foul products will show variations in performance. There is not an anti-foul that works to the 100% satisfaction of all users, in all locations, every year (year in, year out). We all strive to make the best products we can within the limitations of the law, but it's simply not possible to please all the people all of the time.

 

[Kwik Decision]

My recent experience with Coppercoat on a drying (mud) berth is as follows:
2 yrs on a deep water mooring, in Portsmouth Harbour - Coppercoat worked at least as well as conventional antifouling.
Moved to a drying berth on the Hamble 2 yrs ago - all parts of the hull / keels immersed in mud get heavily fouled with barnacles, and also those hard worm things, which take a fair bit of scraping to remove. If they are not removed regularly (scraped / scrubbed 3 times last year), other fouling (as expected) grows on the barnacles.

I note there is a 2 yr old boat on a similar drying berth to ours on the next pontoon, which (I believe) was coppercoated from new, but has just been antifouled. I saw she was covered in barnacles when she came out. I'll keep an eye out, and try and talk to her owner to see what antifoul he used, and later in the year, how effective it has been.

I'm sticking with just the copper coat for now - fortunately with a bilge keeler, we can run up the beach for a scrape.....

 

[steveallan]

I can understand you wanting to defend your product but see no reason for your attacks on your competition.

 

[Trident]

Its very difficult for the customer to get a good idea of product - for example when researching Coppercoat I found mostly positive reports on this forum whilst almost exclusively negative ones on another popular forum (mostly US based members though) - so is the nature of fouling different across the pond ? Who knows..

I'm sure Ewan can find plenty of disparaging things to say about other products and anyone with google could find equal comments from Coppercoat users disparaging that ( I found hundreds on the other Cruising forum)

I have just put 6 coats of Synergy on my boat - partly because I wanted to try something newly designed to try and be consistent in its effect and partly because when I called a Coppercoat dealer for a price on that product he steered me to Synergy instead based on his experience selling Coppercoat - so you pays your money and takes your choice but lets not pretend your product is perfect Ewan because five minutes with google will show its not and that in many cases when its failed the end user has been blamed for improper application and left to remedy a costly mistake. Perhaps any product so sensitive to user error should either not be sold for self application or improved to make it more reliable in all cases.

To give a balanced view of course I will say that sitting here in my marina there are two Coppercoated boats - both actually with 7 years use and both look clean as a whistle on the bottom (and this is the Med so lots of fouling) - meanwhile, to try and help the OP, I was on Chichester mud for two years next to a Prout 37 with Coppercoat and that looked pretty clean at least on all the places I could see when it dried out - just the usual slime but no visible wildlife...

 

[Elessar]

I can understand you wanting to defend your product but see no reason for your attacks on your competition.

Statement of fact only by Ewan - failed and no longer available. Only coppercoat has stayed the course. And whilst i used to have a commercial interest in it i no longer do. So i can say no connection etc.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Perhaps any product so sensitive to user error should either not be sold for self application or improved to make it more reliable in all cases.

That may not be an exclusive issue to CopperCoat, it would apply to any similar product I believe. Anyone applying the product be it a pro or DIY can get excellent results, so long as the instructions are followed to the letter. Short cuts and ignoring advice will end in tears.

 

[geem]

We are in the Caribbean with Coppercoat. We are sailing in company with an American yacht with conventional antifouling paint newly applied this year. We both have similar levels of fouling. The fouling here in some marinas has to be seen to be believed. Uk fouling seems to be about a 1/10 of what we experience here. We are keeping our bottom clean by diving to clean her about every 3 weeks. We have slime and some barnacles, but we had lots of barnacles in Simpson Bay near the entrance to the lagoon. Our friend says he will need to haul the boat out to put new paint on the bottom in the next couple of months as he is rubbing the paint of with all the scrubbing. we just keep scrubbing. In the UK we had no barnacles but we did get slime. the Coppercoat was applied 3 years ago.

 

[EwanClark]

Trident - you of course quite right to say that I shouldn't make out that Coppercoat is perfect. I'm justifiably very proud of our system, but fully accept that there will be variations in performance from boat to boat, location to location, season to season, just as there will be with any anti-foul. It's certainly true that in some locations, a top conventional anti-foul may keep a hull cleaner than Coppercoat, and I'm very willing to accept that. But the key with Coppercoat is that it saves people time and money - instead of having to re-paint the boat very year or so, it simply has a wash/scrub. I think there was a good thread about a month back, called something like "traditional anti-foul v Coppercoat". Reading the comments from genuine users of Coppercoat, the underlying message was that in terms of cleanliness it worked about as well as normal anti-foul (but not particularly better), but simply provided less annual work and cost. Indeed, when we ask our clients why they chose Coppercoat, the answers tend to highlight the time/money savings, far more than possible performance benefits.

With the internet we can all find good and bad reviews for any anti-foul you care to mention. So naturally I'm delighted to hear that you have first hand experience of seeing boats treated with Coppercoat, and that these hulls are keeping clean. I think we all trust what we've seen with our own eyes far more than what we read on the internet!

Coppercoat USA are doing really well now. But boy-oh-boy, the San Francisco based diver who likes to dominate and bully any anti-foul thread on the Cruisers forum is quite a piece of work! Happily admitted to me that he'd never seen a boat with Coppercoat, but that doesn't stop him posting negatively about it time and again. But of course, if you earn a living by scrubbing dirty hulls, the last thing you want is people using any anti-foul that works. The irony is that in a location such as the Bay of SF, you still need to scrub the boat occasionally when using Coppercoat anyway, so he'd not actually be missing out!

I'll be very interested to see how you get on with the new Synergy product. Do please feel free to update me from time to time on info@coppercoat.com. I fully accept that just because all the copper systems Reactive Resins produced before haven't worked doesn't mean that this one wont. Many companies take years to come up with a winning product, and there's no shame in that.

 

[Trident]

Just an early update as we're testing in the Med, it has only been on 3 months so far but its looking good. I've been diving round the boat every day this week and there is nothing alive or dead on the hull whatsoever. No weed, no creatures; it still looks as it did the day we applied it and thats in 23 degree water having done 200 miles at around 5-6 knots in 3 months. I'm very impressed so far - now to see if it stays doing the job for years to come...

 

[RichardS]

it still looks as it did the day we applied it and thats in 23 degree water having done 200 miles at around 5-6 knots in 3 months. I'm very impressed so far - now to see if it stays doing the job for years to come...

I assume that it's gone a manky bluey-green rather than stayed the lovely burnished copper colour?

If not, I want my money back as mine looks manky after 6 months !

 

[Trident]

Mostly still copper coloured - a few patches of manky green but those wash off as we move and leave more copper colour below...

 

[RichardS]

Mostly still copper coloured - a few patches of manky green but those wash off as we move and leave more copper colour below...

I'll be interested to see if Ewan comments on that as my understanding was that if it's still the original copper coloured then it's not working.

Richard

 

[Trident]

I asked Reactive Resins about this when I applied it and they pointed out their "show" boat on their website was still copper coloured after a year. This seemed a little odd as all copper coat boats I have seen are green BUT, when I checked the chemistry the cupric oxide compounds are noted as "dark copper coloured" rather than green so its seems its as it should be. Whatever the case, we have zero growth, not 1mm square in a traditionally heavy fouling environment. I know its only been 3 months but last year I anti fouled in April and had to haul out in June to fix a drive leg problem and we had pretty heavy fouling by then, so to have nothing this year with the Synergy is very encouraging and unless the barnacles just don't like the colour I'd say so far its working

 

[RichardS]

I asked Reactive Resins about this when I applied it and they pointed out their "show" boat on their website was still copper coloured after a year. This seemed a little odd as all copper coat boats I have seen are green BUT, when I checked the chemistry the cupric oxide compounds are noted as "dark copper coloured" rather than green so its seems its as it should be. Whatever the case, we have zero growth, not 1mm square in a traditionally heavy fouling environment. I know its only been 3 months but last year I anti fouled in April and had to haul out in June to fix a drive leg problem and we had pretty heavy fouling by then, so to have nothing this year with the Synergy is very encouraging and unless the barnacles just don't like the colour I'd say so far its working

It sounds very good. As you say, 3 months is a good test and no fouling is great. We were on our boat a couple of months ago, 4 months after Coppercoating and although I didn't swim down, it looks to be clear of growth. However, SWMBO did not like the greeny appearance. I've told her that once we get sailing it will improve. That's bought me some time! :encouragement:

Richard

 

[C08]

I asked Reactive Resins about this when I applied it and they pointed out their "show" boat on their website was still copper coloured after a year. This seemed a little odd as all copper coat boats I have seen are green BUT, when I checked the chemistry the cupric oxide compounds are noted as "dark copper coloured" rather than green so its seems its as it should be. Whatever the case, we have zero growth, not 1mm square in a traditionally heavy fouling environment. I know its only been 3 months but last year I anti fouled in April and had to haul out in June to fix a drive leg problem and we had pretty heavy fouling by then, so to have nothing this year with the Synergy is very encouraging and unless the barnacles just don't like the colour I'd say so far its working

I have not been lifted out for 6 years but I hate scrubbing off and anti fouling each year so I quite fancy a copper coating system next time I lift out into a boatyard but I am deterred by the one-off cost of "Coppercoat" even though I would break even after about 10 years (based on beach based antifouling and applying the stuff myself but having the hull blasted to clean it). Can I ask the price comparison for the two systems for your boat with Synergy compared to Coppercoat?

 

[Trident]

Synergy is cheaper - lets ignore application costs and prep costs as they vary too much but I had quoted from CopperCoat for the product only and compared to the Synergy it came out around £400 more for a 10.4m cat.
I think the level of prep required for Synergy is not quite as time consuming and costly as it is for CopperCoat and whilst we had to do 5 coats its goes on very easily and quickly and two of us had each coat done in an hour with rollers. On the other hand whilst we were painting another cat which was CopperCoated 8 years ago was hauled out and after a quick hose down (not even a pressure wash) the bottom was clean as a whistle so when it works (check forum threads for times it hasn't) it does seem to last a very long time. Synergy may match that but I won't know for a long time yet.

 

[EwanClark]

I'm happy to quickly confirm that the level of preparation for both Coppercoat and Synergy is identical. Both products need to be applied to a clean, dry and well-abraded permanent substrate, such as gel-coat or two-pack epoxy resin. The application process is broadly similar also, usually being completed in about 4 coats when applied by roller.

As Synergy is completely new it is currently being marketed for a price approximately £10 plus Vat per litre less than Coppercoat. So as a guide, for the average 10m yacht, the difference in cost between the two would be approximately £80 plus Vat. Understandably for some people this difference is important, as after all, £80 is still £80! However, for the vast majority, the fact that we have been making and supplying Coppercoat for over 20 years, have treated over 50,000 boats, and supply many of the Worlds best known boat builders gives them the reassurance they are looking for when spending their money.

For most people shopping for a long term anti-foul, they like to see proof that the product they are thinking of using actually has a track record of doing what it says. And of all the anti-foul coatings currently available that claim a life-span of 10 years or more, the simple truth is that only Coppercoat has been out long enough to actually prove this.