Re-setting EU Temporary Import in Channel Islands for Non-EU Boat

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MarkJ

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Re-setting EU 18 month boat Temporary Import in Channel Islands.

A change in plan means I might hang out in Western Europe longer than expected. :cool:

My boat is Australian flagged and its 18 month Temporary Import into the EU will expire soonish.
To get a new Temporary Import I need to "leave the EU" (Norway, Morocco etc) and then come back in.
The Channel Islands is often mentioned but I would like to hear definitively from someone who has, or knows someone who definitely has re-started his Temporary Import by visiting one of the Channel Islands.

I understand the French do not like it at all so I would not go from or back to France.

(I have searched YBW and cannot fine up-to-date information, the last thread was 2011)

In the HR Revenue and Customs Website Section 5.5 says “Subject to the conditions outlined in paragraphs 5.1 to 5.4, no formal application for authorisation or customs declaration to claim relief will be required when you arrive direct from a country outside the EU (the Channel Islands are regarded as outside the EU for this purpose).”

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ur-pleasure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk#section5

I kinda want someone to definitely tell me that HMRC will give me another 18 months after I sail back from Jersey.

Thanks :)

Mark
 
MarkJ said:
Re-setting EU 18 month boat Temporary Import in Channel Islands.

A change in plan means I might hang out in Western Europe longer than expected. :cool:

My boat is Australian flagged and its 18 month Temporary Import into the EU will expire soonish.
To get a new Temporary Import I need to "leave the EU" (Norway, Morocco etc) and then come back in.
The Channel Islands is often mentioned but I would like to hear definitively from someone who has, or knows someone who definitely has re-started his Temporary Import by visiting one of the Channel Islands.

I understand the French do not like it at all so I would not go from or back to France.

(I have searched YBW and cannot fine up-to-date information, the last thread was 2011)

In the HR Revenue and Customs Website Section 5.5 says “Subject to the conditions outlined in paragraphs 5.1 to 5.4, no formal application for authorisation or customs declaration to claim relief will be required when you arrive direct from a country outside the EU (the Channel Islands are regarded as outside the EU for this purpose).”

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ur-pleasure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk#section5

I kinda want someone to definitely tell me that HMRC will give me another 18 months after I sail back from Jersey.

Thanks :)

Mark
Click to expand...

How will they know? How many peeps have been asked about their status?
 
Mark: you don't mention it, but I'm assuming you are not resident in any part of the EU?

Otherwise, I can't see any reason the clock can't be reset in the Channel Isles, which are most certainly outside the EU VAT area. But, given the potential penalty, calling the helpline makes complete sense.

P.S. And welcome.
 
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MarkJ said:
Re-setting EU 18 month boat Temporary Import in Channel Islands.

A change in plan means I might hang out in Western Europe longer than expected. :cool:

My boat is Australian flagged and its 18 month Temporary Import into the EU will expire soonish.
To get a new Temporary Import I need to "leave the EU" (Norway, Morocco etc) and then come back in.
The Channel Islands is often mentioned but I would like to hear definitively from someone who has, or knows someone who definitely has re-started his Temporary Import by visiting one of the Channel Islands.

I understand the French do not like it at all so I would not go from or back to France.

(I have searched YBW and cannot fine up-to-date information, the last thread was 2011)

In the HR Revenue and Customs Website Section 5.5 says “Subject to the conditions outlined in paragraphs 5.1 to 5.4, no formal application for authorisation or customs declaration to claim relief will be required when you arrive direct from a country outside the EU (the Channel Islands are regarded as outside the EU for this purpose).”

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ur-pleasure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk#section5

I kinda want someone to definitely tell me that HMRC will give me another 18 months after I sail back from Jersey.

Thanks :)

Mark
Click to expand...

No one likes it to be honest, ANYWHERE you go with anything on paper from the Channel Islands will be scrutinised to the comas and quality of the paper involved. Not just the French. I don’t think there’s a country in Europe that will not want to peruse your paperwork with a microscope.
Brexit has not made it any easier. And it’s not about to get any better. Europe has kind of had it with Gibraltar, The Channel Islands, Isle of Man etc.
If you have the time and resources. Do go to Morocco. I do know someone that did that instead of the channel Isles. Brief conversation it was, but his argument is the one I’m giving you. I believe his boat was Canadian Flagged. I do remember that he also did not want to go to Norway, don’t remember the reason he gave.
 
Greg: I fear your point is a bit paranoid. If Jersey is deemed to be outside the EU VAT area for the purposes of Temporary Importation, then prejudices have no bearing. So far as VAT's concerned (VAT being the principle issue with TI), the Isle of Man's also a red herring, since it's in the EU VAT area and has been for decades. For the past decade or so it's also been pretty much fiscally approved by the EU, so no issues of the sort you mention there. (I sailed under an IoM flag for many years, since that's where my home was).

Gib is in the EU, so if Brussels is peed off with it, it has plenty of avenues to say so, not to mention redress it can impose. But it doesn't.

Norway, which you also mention, is in Schengen but not in the EU VAT area. Yes, it's complicated and often anomalous, but it is what it is.
 
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macd said:
Greg: I fear your point is a bit paranoid. If Jersey is deemed to be outside the EU VAT area for the purposes of Temporary Importation, then prejudices have no bearing. So far as VAT's concerned (VAT being the principle issue with TI), the Isle of Man's also a red herring, since it's in the EU VAT area and has been for decades. For the past decade or so it's also been pretty much fiscally approved by the EU, so no issues of the sort you mention there. (I sailed under an IoM flag for many years, since that's where my home was). Norway, which you also mention, is in Schengen but not in the EU VAT area. Yes, it's complicated and often anomalous, but it is what it is.
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Mac, I'm actually trying to be very politically correct not to contaminate the Sailing Community with such mundane and pernicious views.
There are 2 types of reality, the perceived and the one we live in. You take papers from Morocco anywhere, and you’re arriving from Africa. You take papers from the Channel Islands and you’re Gamming the System. You know that, I know that and the Gendarme WILL know that. You happen to catch him in a bad day (i.e. His lady forgot the salt on the bouillabaisse) and before you know it you get inspected top to bottom. I have seen it done in Holland to a US flagged sailboat. It involved dogs, 3 days in Rotterdam, Various visits by EVERY department they could think off, and to finish it was hauled out of the water at the expense of the owner for “tonnage” control. My ex Father in Law was the maritime Lawyer for the Rijkspolitie. And it was entertainment to be had from the window of my office. I believe one of the things he had to pay a fine for was his VHF license, don’t remember why, I do remember that the Idea was to aggravate as much as they could get away with. In their view he was gamming the system.
That this does not happen every time is also true and I do not know the particulars of any interaction or what exactly led to it. I just know they knew he was gamming the system and they could not do anything about it so they threw the book at him to see if something stuck.
Belgium Red Diesel anyone?
 
I understand what you're saying, Greg, and there's a lot of practical sense in it. But (assuming the CI is deemed extra-EU for TI purposes, which I believe it is), the 'papers' you mention are little more than a punctuation mark in his file. Basically, he just goes there and is only required to prove later it if specifically asked. The impression he gives is that he'll be so prepared.

The qualifications for TI are very clear: the OP will either meet them or he won't. If he won't, he's no doubt wise enough to make other arrangements; if he will, then there's little or no ambiguity. It's worth noting that the EU largely dispenses TI on trust, anyway, viz his quote from HMRC's para 5.5. The EU reiterates this in its own guidance direct from Brussels (or, more probably, HMRC reiterates Brussels).
 
Agree. It is a sort on non issue if you have followed the system. There is no "gaming" involved - you either qualify or you don't. Just need the evidence, particularly if you are extending a stay as this is discretionary. However, the OP is starting a new TI by visiting the CIs which are clearly outside the EU for the purposes of this rule.
 
Tranona said:
Agree. It is a sort on non issue if you have followed the system. There is no "gaming" involved - you either qualify or you don't. Just need the evidence, particularly if you are extending a stay as this is discretionary. However, the OP is starting a new TI by visiting the CIs which are clearly outside the EU for the purposes of this rule.
Click to expand...


I do agree with that view, however what I am trying to point out is that as the Chinese saying goes, “may you live in interesting times” we are indeed living in interesting times and Brexit is creating a lot of layers that actually NEED to be taken into account. I am. As the OP stated Morocco as a possible destination, that is where I would go. 5 days of good sailing a couple of weeks of sunshine and voila back to Europe. It just seems to me that EVERYONE is acting like an Ostrich and burying their heads in the sand as preparation for Brexit and all its layers and consequences legal and otherwise. Or do you think that Europe is going to roll the Red Carpet? This is already having serious and real implication on day to day life and at some stage you are bound to come face to face with someone not too impressed, and do not underestimate the power of the little people that cannot have a say but nevertheless will use any chance to take a pot at you.

Remind me again about the EU regulation about Red Diesel. Les Belges seem to have forgotten it for a tad.
 
OP doesn't say where the boat is at the moment or where he first entered EU but I would have thought that spending a few months in the CI's and getting Customs and marina bills to prove it should fit the bill.
Note that Guernsey and Jersey have different rules in that on Guernsey you fill out a Customs and Immigration declaration on arrival by default and on Jersey you don't.
This site: https://gov.gg/GBA might be of help.
As for returning into EU, I would have thought that France (Cherbourg) might be less hassle than UK, but that's just my feeling.
 
LadyInBed said:
OP doesn't say where the boat is at the moment or where he first entered EU but I would have thought that spending a few months in the CI's and getting Customs and marina bills to prove it should fit the bill.
Note that Guernsey and Jersey have different rules in that on Guernsey you fill out a Customs and Immigration declaration on arrival by default and on Jersey you don't.
This site: https://gov.gg/GBA might be of help.
As for returning into EU, I would have thought that France (Cherbourg) might be less hassle than UK, but that's just my feeling.
Click to expand...

Between Terrorism prevention, people smuggling and Brexit... France is becoming an interesting place to arrive at. Laissez faire et laissez passer seems to be in the rearview mirror more and more.
 
LadyInBed said:
I would have thought that spending a few months in the CI's and getting Customs and marina bills to prove it should fit the bill.
Click to expand...

There is no specified minimum time required in a 'third country': one day is often regarded as sufficient by those resetting TI clocks. (The OP may well be aware of this from his own experience or that of compatriots.) In fact to be best of my knowledge its nowhere stated that a third country must be visited at all: simply leaving EU waters may be sufficient, if harder to verify with documentary evidence.
 
Further to the post above, here's the official EU skinny on Temporary Importation:
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custo...-asked-questions-about-rules-private-boats_en

Regarding re-setting the clock: "You can sail the yacht out of the EU and when you came back again for another holiday a new period of temporary importation can begin. The customs rules do not provide for a 'minimum period' during which the goods must remain outside of the customs territory of the EU." [My bolds]

Worth also noting the statement that TI is "NOT available to EU residents". For the purposes of TI, a third country flag does not make a boat non-EU.
 
Well, the research on this narly little problem took quite some figuring out.

Yes, the Channel Islands can be used as a method to leave the EU and then come back and Temporary Import the boat again.
However the devil is in the detail and how different countries perceive the (unwritten?) fine print.

If you take a close look at the Chart the Channel Islands only have access from International waters from one direction. And thats NOT the Alderney Race. So if one sailed down the Alderney race to, say, Jersey they would have been in French territorial waters and thus have been required to have cleared in, or remain cleared in, to the EU.

So the method is there.... one must arrive in the Channel Islands from International Waters.

To make it easier I will not be clearing out and/or in again in the bordering country but will clear out of a non-bordering country and clearing back in and doing the new Temporary Importation in a non-bordering country... that just so happens to speak the same language as me (albeit with an accent) ;) ;)

If you catch my drift! ;)


I shall confirm the method once done.


Mark
 
MarkJ said:
So the method is there.... one must arrive in the Channel Islands from International Waters.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting back, Mark.

That seems a slightly odd outcome, but then the position of the Channel Islands vis-a-vis the EU is pretty weird. Whilst not being part of the EU, they are actually in the EU Customs Union, but not the EU VAT area. Go figure.

Perhaps when I wrote this earlier, I'd stumbled across the point: "its nowhere stated that a third country must be visited at all: simply leaving EU waters may be sufficient, if harder to verify with documentary evidence". In other words, perhaps the leaving of EU [Customs Zone] waters is the salient factor, not specifically the arriving at a non-EU country. The EU page I linked to in post #15 does state that the relevant geographic area is "the customs territory of the EU."

I hasten to add that that's something of a guess on my part, but perhaps a credible one. It certainly doesn't apply to trips from Greece to Turkey, which often do not transit international waters, but do involve a separate customs zone at the Turkish end. (To further complicate matters, Turkey is in a bilateral customs union with the EU, but is not part of the EU customs union. Europe must seem giddily complicated compared to Oz.)

From the sound of it, this doesn't affect your cruising plans either way, but it is a curiosity. Fair winds, including the bureaucratic sort.
 
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Mac,

I got the impression that the feelings like Malvinas/Falklands, Gibraltar/Spain are similar to France/Channel Islands. (I really don't know the history - yet)

If someone set up a ferry service from Cherbourg to the Channel Islands daily shopping trips could be organised where every shopper avoids 15% tax. Get a Ro-Ro and go buy your car in Guernsey and ferry it to France. You could just imagine it being like the Caribbean in Pirate ship days where the tax free ports were thriving from pirate trade whilst everyone else was destitute.

So I guess that when viewed like that, yes, the authorities wouldn't like some ideas at all.

You are right about Turkey/Greece, some islands are close: Samos is less than 1nm from the Turkish mainland.
I remember some cruisers would say they never clear in/out of Turkey and Greece. Well, thats stupid. get the boat confiscated or a whacking big fine if someones unlucky.

So I shall dot i's and cross t's.

:)
 
There are direct ferry links between France and the CIs and regular traffic between them. However, doubt it is popular as a "pirate" type activity, unlike at some periods in the past the "booze" runs from south coast ports to France. The price differential of most goods at a retail level is not sufficient and in theory any goods going from CIs to an EU state are subject to VAT on import! On the other hand there are many adjacent states where there is a significant differential in price of some heavily taxed commodities such as tobacco, booze and fuel for there to be regular cross border trade.
 
MarkJ said:
If someone set up a ferry service from Cherbourg to the Channel Islands daily shopping trips could be organised where every shopper avoids 15% tax. Get a Ro-Ro and go buy your car in Guernsey and ferry it to France. You could just imagine it being like the Caribbean in Pirate ship days where the tax free ports were thriving from pirate trade whilst everyone else was destitute.
Click to expand...

There are already three Jersey/France ferry routes from Jersey to France, which no doubt carry their share of shoppers. There's the usual meagre duty-free allowance for booze/cigs in both directions, but a fairly generous one for other goods arriving in the CI from the EU. Not sure what happens in the other direction, although there are several CI forumites who would know. Cars would, I think, get hammered for VAT if permanently imported to France: no easy way out of this, since they'd need to be registered there.

(Beaten to it...by several lengths...by Tranona. I got destracted reading about 'donkeys' and 'toads'. The latter evidently live on Jersey.)
 
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