Re-engine or keep staggering on?

[BrianH]

Having obtained such excellent advice here on my oil contamination problem – now resolved (it was water from the raw water pump that was getting past a seal), I am open to any suggestions on an extension to my engine situation.

The engine, a 30 year old Volvo Penta MD17C, is again running. The mechanic very competently dealt with the succession of failures that originated with the problem (plus others that cropped up during and shortly after), having to supply some refurbished parts from his graveyard stock of old VP engines where no new ones are any longer available.

I was impressed not only with his knowledge and resourcefulness, but also his openness, reliability and honesty. For example, the alternator began to fail; he removed it for a bench test and returned saying it only needed cleaning, for which he did not charge, nor for his time to make a second oil change to fully ensure no water contamination remained.

But I am also impressed by the forthright statements he made of the condition of the engine and the likelihood of a continuing succession of future failures without a complete overhaul – well, I suppose he would say that, wouldn't he? Except he doesn't seem to need the work, having trouble to fit in his visits to my boat with a very busy workload. But what he did add was that the cost of such an overhaul didn't make a lot of sense on such an old engine with no spare parts available against that of a new engine installation, for which he would recommend a Nanni 4.38 as a direct replacement of my 35hp Volvo Penta - and that he could do that over the next winter, if I was interested. “Oh, and by the way,” he added, “If you do decide, I'll deduct the cost of this repair.” Hmm, that just means less reduction than I would have got anyway.

So that's my new dilemma, whether to re-engine my old but much loved boat or to keep chugging along on a wing and a prayer. What does the team think?

 

[DownWest]

Sounds a nice guy. So, if you can't do it yourself (overhaul) what is your alternative?
A

 

[DownWest]

To add: There is a huge gap between what a good mech would accept for his own boat and that for a customer who might get legal if it doesn't work out. Bit like the rough cars in the garage parking are owned by the mecs. As they know what the can get away with. For the paying customer, it must be fool proof. (Not a ref to you (as a fool)).
A

 

[vyv_cox]

I re-engined mine, going from a Bukh 20 to a Yanmar 3GM30. Many people would have said the Bukh was in reasonable condition, it burned little oil, I had recently replaced crankshaft oil seals but it was rather noisy. I was in the situation that I could afford to replace it and was on the point of retiring, in the expectation that the engine would be used to a far greater extent. It turned out to be an excellent decision. All reliability concerns are now behind us, the new engine is smoother, quieter, cleaner and considerably lighter. If you can afford it, change it.

 

[SAWDOC]

I re-engined mine, going from a Bukh 20 to a Yanmar 3GM30. Many people would have said the Bukh was in reasonable condition, it burned little oil, I had recently replaced crankshaft oil seals but it was rather noisy. I was in the situation that I could afford to replace it and was on the point of retiring, in the expectation that the engine would be used to a far greater extent. It turned out to be an excellent decision. All reliability concerns are now behind us, the new engine is smoother, quieter, cleaner and considerably lighter. If you can afford it, change it.

Well said.

 

[BrianH]

To add: There is a huge gap between what a good mech would accept for his own boat and that for a customer who might get legal if it doesn't work out. Bit like the rough cars in the garage parking are owned by the mecs. As they know what the can get away with. For the paying customer, it must be fool proof. (Not a ref to you (as a fool)).
A

Oh, but I am, where engines are concerned.

But I know what you mean, and he probably is quite exact and can see the worn-out parts that could fail where before I, in my ignorance, just kept pressing the starter button and cruising on. I see things differently now he has opened my eyes, but unable to truly assess how far removed from my earlier belief in my engine's reliability the situation really is.

 

[BrianH]

I re-engined mine, going from a Bukh 20 to a Yanmar 3GM30. Many people would have said the Bukh was in reasonable condition, it burned little oil, I had recently replaced crankshaft oil seals but it was rather noisy. I was in the situation that I could afford to replace it and was on the point of retiring, in the expectation that the engine would be used to a far greater extent.

I've been retired for many years and, in all honesty, wonder how much longer I will be able to enjoy a new engine when, in my first season with it, I will have turned 77.

It turned out to be an excellent decision. All reliability concerns are now behind us, the new engine is smoother, quieter, cleaner and considerably lighter. If you can afford it, change it.

Well, my present engine is smooth, quiet and clean (I have kept it so), unless you mean environmentally, and the weight is not an issue. But with the reliability concerns - well there you have me, I guess, and there's the crux of the matter.

Yes, I suppose I can afford it - at least my CFO grudgingly approved it when I contacted her at home on Skype today - so that's one major hurdle cleared.

 

[Norman_E]

If there is a problem getting spares and the old engine is likely to fail again, a new engine has to be the correct choice.

 

[ColdFusion]

I've been retired for many years and, in all honesty, wonder how much longer I will be able to enjoy a new engine when, in my first season with it, I will have turned 77.


Well, my present engine is smooth, quiet and clean (I have kept it so), unless you mean environmentally, and the weight is not an issue. But with the reliability concerns - well there you have me, I guess, and there's the crux of the matter.

Yes, I suppose I can afford it - at least my CFO grudgingly approved it when I contacted her at home on Skype today - so that's one major hurdle cleared.

You know the engine and how it has been cared for, and it's just had work done on it by a competent mechanic. From your above post I would say stick with it and only replace it if you have to.

 

[Tranona]

Having re-engined my boat twice in my 30 years ownership, my instinct would be do it - but I am more than 10 years younger than you and anticpate getting more than my money's worth out of the new Nanni. The arguments for and against keeping an oldie running are finely balanced on economic and practical grounds - it could fail tomorrow, not owing you anything, or it could last another 5 years or more.

However, a modern engine is such a leap forward in quietness smoothness etc that it is worth doing it for this reason alone. You just have to decide whether you are prepared to cough up the £8k or so, to add very little monetary value to your boat, but a huge increase in functionality. In other words if you have the money and you are not going to be out on the streets if you spend it - then do it!

I say this having just had the first big bill on my Morgan after 8 years from new - but the pleasure of having it back to as new condition outweighs the cost - particularly as the car has to last me out!

 

[BrianH]

The two posts above, (Tranona and ColdFusion) precisely encapsulate the two states of mind that I am fluctuating between. Both have valid points and both take precedence in my mind at different times, which is why I posted here. This morning's thoughts tend towards re-engine but who knows tomorrow?

Thanks to all contributors, as usual you have come up trumps. Watch this space.

 

[jfkal]

I've been retired for many years and, in all honesty, wonder how much longer I will be able to enjoy a new engine when, in my first season with it, I will have turned 77.

Exactly. That's why you would want to have a reliable engine.
Definition of boat: Hole in the water where you put money in. Some joy in return
Definition of old engine on the above: Black hole which sucks in even more money. More worries in return.

I spent 5K on an old engine which was supposedly been completely overhauled a few years earlier at also 5K. Nothing but trouble. Finally I went for a new engine at 10K and did not have a single issue for 8 years now. Knock on wood of course (or cast iron for that matter).

 

[Searush]

OK, both sides of the argument have been stated, now here's the crunch;

Ask yourself, "Will I regret spending the money?"

and "Will I regret not replacing the engine?"



The answer tells you what to do doesn't it? I replaced my 30yo Volvo with a Yanmar 3ym30 a few years back after 3 rebuilds of teh old engine, each lasting less time than the previous one. The extra power, reliability, quietness & smoothness are just a bonus each time I start it.

Another consideration, perhaps, is that you will sell the boat easier with a new engine than with an old one, if you do have to pack in for health reasons.

 

[yellowspinnaker]

I have a similar quandary - do I go for a new Beta or keep my MD6a going? It's finely balanced, as others have said.

My current leaning is to keep the old Volvo. It's had one recurrent cooling problem which I have now finally (I hope) conquered, and it has the limitations inherent with a 35 year old engine. It's a little underpowered for many people. It's noisy. Its combined starter motor/generator has a laughably small output by todays standards. But it starts very well and keeps plodding on, it has a frugal habit with the diesel, and it's original to the boat.

But for me the clincher is that for the sailing I do - in and around Poole Harbour - it's just fine. It is, after all, not my primary means of propulsion, and my trusty outboard acts as a stalwart backstop.

There again I am known for my wacky habit of liking old things...

 

[BrianH]

Another consideration, perhaps, is that you will sell the boat easier with a new engine than with an old one, if you do have to pack in for health reasons.

This is true -with the self-evident proviso that I would never recover the cost.

A common phenomenon in my marina is one of elderly male boat owners who suddenly die, there have been three in as many years on my pier alone - I always did call it the Geriatric Pier. The distraught widow then finds herself lumbered with a continually costly asset in marina fees and insurance and no idea of what to do with it in a moribund market. My wife has often brought up this theme - "What can I do when ..." Perhaps why she uncharacteristically agreed so promptly to re-engine.

 

[BrianH]

I have a similar quandary - do I go for a new Beta or keep my MD6a going? It's finely balanced, as others have said.
But for me the clincher is that for the sailing I do - in and around Poole Harbour - it's just fine. It is, after all, not my primary means of propulsion, and my trusty outboard acts as a stalwart backstop.

This is a pertinent point and one that tentatively leads me in the opposite direction to the one you have done. And not just because I have a motor-sailor boat.

The northern Adriatic is often cursed with the typical Mediterranean weather pattern of either too little wind or too much, when a reliable and powerful engine is necessary. Coupled to that is my marina location some 5nm up narrow, twisting lagoon channels where the wind is rarely suitable for sailing either in or out.

Sounds like I'm really talking myself into justifying spending all that money.

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

This is true -with the self-evident proviso that I would never recover the cost.

A common phenomenon in my marina is one of elderly male boat owners who suddenly die, there have been three in as many years on my pier alone - I always did call it the Geriatric Pier. The distraught widow then finds herself lumbered with a continually costly asset in marina fees and insurance and no idea of what to do with it in a moribund market. My wife has often brought up this theme - "What can I do when ..." Perhaps why she uncharacteristically agreed so promptly to re-engine.

When I bought my present yacht three years ago it had still the original 1984 MD17D. I negotiated the price down the cost of re-engine-ing because I foresaw your dilemma. Touch wood, it is still running fine, but when there is a major failure I'll not hesitate to replace.
But make sure your decision is based on major parts failures! Water pump seals fail on new engines too! Heat exchangers get blocked up! Impellors wear out whatever the age of engine if run dry!
However prepare to be bargained down in price with an engine of that vintage when selling!
The real catch 22 is whether to buy a new engine now, whilst the £ is low so new engines are dear (relatively) or wait till the economy improves (if ever) and new engines are cheaper. I know that whatever I do it will be wrong!

 

[Searush]

Kurrawong Kid, OP is not in UK so value of pound is irrelevant to him!

Barnac1e

Northern Adriatic & Italy with long winding channel to your berth - that wouldn't be around Venice would it! If so, what a lovely area to sail! I'm jealous!

 

[MrCramp]

I've been retired for many years and, in all honesty, wonder how much longer I will be able to enjoy a new engine when, in my first season with it, I will have turned 77.

I reckon that once you get around 90 you need to consider how long you are going to enjoy your boating. That would give you at least 13 years with a new engine so I would say that you should get the new one ASAP.

I am 20 years younger than you and I cannot be doing with things that don't work properly, whilst a few years back I would make do.

From reading your posts I get the impression that you do want the new engine and you are just trying to get support for the idea!

Good Luck with it.

 

[prv]

Kurrawong Kid, OP is not in UK so value of pound is irrelevant to him!

Bet it is if his pension is paid in pounds

Pete