Raymarine on the rocks?
- Thread starter Twister_Ken
- Start date
Phideaux
Well-Known Member
Share value has droped in 12 months by 92% from 195p to 15.5p. Ouch /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
Can't see Garmin et al being interested in them as discussed in the article... in a market where supply outstrips demand, then surely from Garmin's perspective they'd be better left going to the wall and taking them out of the market.... perhaps only exception would be if Raymarine have any particular technology that would be of interest to other manufacturers (but I sense that Raymarine have lost their technical lead in the last 2 years)?
Anyway.... they must be near to breaching banking covenants, let alone running out of cash, in which case, the banks will control them before too long anyway...so I guess they'll decide their fate....
Anyway.... they must be near to breaching banking covenants, let alone running out of cash, in which case, the banks will control them before too long anyway...so I guess they'll decide their fate....
Topcat47
Well-Known Member
If they do go under it will be a shame. They have just checked out and sorted my "legacy" Autohelm 2000 at a very reasonable rate.
whipper_snapper
Well-Known Member
Aren't they still part of Raytheon ?
One of the biggest winners from Bush's wars with big and continuing profits ?
One of the biggest winners from Bush's wars with big and continuing profits ?
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Nope. MBO several years back.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
I bought into Raymarine a while back when everyone said not to buy - sold at 30ish pence and doubled my money.
Will certianly be doing the same again soon at a time like now when there's plenty of fear around.
Raymarine is going to make someone a great deal of money if (when?) the general economy picks up.
Will certianly be doing the same again soon at a time like now when there's plenty of fear around.
Raymarine is going to make someone a great deal of money if (when?) the general economy picks up.
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
The suggestion is that they are not worth their net debt, so who would buy them, and why. Let them go to the wall, and offer the administrators a pittance for the assets..... no debt!.
Shame for those that are owed the money though!
Shame for those that are owed the money though!
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The suggestion is that they are not worth their net debt, so who would buy them, and why.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nobody.
[ QUOTE ]
Let them go to the wall, and offer the administrators a pittance for the assets..... no debt!.
[/ QUOTE ]
What assets?
The creditors have no incentive to let them go to the wall. They're in to the tune of £100m. They can either kiss goodbye to £100m or hang on and hope the recession ends soon.
My bet is there will be no buyer, there will be no alternative investors but that the banks will (reluctantly) keep taking more risk on and keep Raymarine going. The people who buy in just before the turnaround are going to make 20 times their investment back.
The only tricky thing is guessing when to buy, 'cos I don't really want to be in when/if the creditors get a shed load of shares but I don't want to be out when/if the upturn comes. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
The suggestion is that they are not worth their net debt, so who would buy them, and why.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nobody.
[ QUOTE ]
Let them go to the wall, and offer the administrators a pittance for the assets..... no debt!.
[/ QUOTE ]
What assets?
The creditors have no incentive to let them go to the wall. They're in to the tune of £100m. They can either kiss goodbye to £100m or hang on and hope the recession ends soon.
My bet is there will be no buyer, there will be no alternative investors but that the banks will (reluctantly) keep taking more risk on and keep Raymarine going. The people who buy in just before the turnaround are going to make 20 times their investment back.
The only tricky thing is guessing when to buy, 'cos I don't really want to be in when/if the creditors get a shed load of shares but I don't want to be out when/if the upturn comes. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
savageseadog
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
.............................My bet is there will be no buyer, there will be no alternative investors but that the banks will (reluctantly) keep taking more risk on and keep Raymarine going.................
[/ QUOTE ]But there is such a thing as trading insolvently. If the banks lend more money then the company becomes more indebted unless the banks swap debt for equity.
.............................My bet is there will be no buyer, there will be no alternative investors but that the banks will (reluctantly) keep taking more risk on and keep Raymarine going.................
[/ QUOTE ]But there is such a thing as trading insolvently. If the banks lend more money then the company becomes more indebted unless the banks swap debt for equity.
Pinnacle
Well-Known Member
Stand by for v informed comment from jfm.......... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
ShipsWoofy
Well-Known Member
I promised never to buy Raymarine again after they closed down Portsmouth and moved the factory to Poland/hungary/china.
Goodbye RM, no sympathy sorry!
Goodbye RM, no sympathy sorry!
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I bought into Raymarine a while back when everyone said not to buy - sold at 30ish pence and doubled my money.
Will certianly be doing the same again soon at a time like now when there's plenty of fear around.
Raymarine is going to make someone a great deal of money if (when?) the general economy picks up.
[/ QUOTE ]Very dangerous strategy IMHO....
The financiers won't just lend money on that scale without serious covenants in place.... typically these will be things like EBITDA vs lending at certain thresholds... these criteria will also be net reduced by other things like pensions liabilities and margin growth/reduction trends... and if they are breached, then the financier can withdraw the funding... at which point they are in control.... and there will be a massive debt for equity exchange.... and existing shareholders will find their holdings near worthless.....
In reality, if the primary investors are institutional, the more likely outcome in the near future is an EGM, a new board, and a massive change programme.....
So, IME, given all that, the only way this kind of share can make money at present for investors is in short term trading.... and thats a game for the very brave at anything above pocket money.......
I bought into Raymarine a while back when everyone said not to buy - sold at 30ish pence and doubled my money.
Will certianly be doing the same again soon at a time like now when there's plenty of fear around.
Raymarine is going to make someone a great deal of money if (when?) the general economy picks up.
[/ QUOTE ]Very dangerous strategy IMHO....
The financiers won't just lend money on that scale without serious covenants in place.... typically these will be things like EBITDA vs lending at certain thresholds... these criteria will also be net reduced by other things like pensions liabilities and margin growth/reduction trends... and if they are breached, then the financier can withdraw the funding... at which point they are in control.... and there will be a massive debt for equity exchange.... and existing shareholders will find their holdings near worthless.....
In reality, if the primary investors are institutional, the more likely outcome in the near future is an EGM, a new board, and a massive change programme.....
So, IME, given all that, the only way this kind of share can make money at present for investors is in short term trading.... and thats a game for the very brave at anything above pocket money.......
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Or just liquidation, and someone will be able to pick up the assets (probably mostly tooling and intellectual property) in a fire sale for peanuts.
Heckler
Well-Known Member
What happened when we had the heads up a few weeks ago, someone bought a pile, 20k plus.
S
S
arfa
Well-Known Member
Unless someone injects some cash in it looks like that'll be the banks then....
Writing was on the wall with the declining cashflow last year
Writing was on the wall with the declining cashflow last year
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I promised never to buy Raymarine again after they closed down Portsmouth and moved the factory to Poland/hungary/china. Goodbye RM, no sympathy sorry!
[/ QUOTE ]
Problem is RM still employ a lot of UK people, mainly technical. This kind of high margin - high tech business is just about the only 'proper' industry the UK can support.
Once those kind of jobs go what's left?
We can't all be hair dressers or work in tourism.
I promised never to buy Raymarine again after they closed down Portsmouth and moved the factory to Poland/hungary/china. Goodbye RM, no sympathy sorry!
[/ QUOTE ]
Problem is RM still employ a lot of UK people, mainly technical. This kind of high margin - high tech business is just about the only 'proper' industry the UK can support.
Once those kind of jobs go what's left?
We can't all be hair dressers or work in tourism.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Very dangerous strategy IMHO....
[/ QUOTE ]
No. The last investment was the dangerous one. Now I can just invest my profits from the last one and if I lose it Raymarine owes me nothing.
[ QUOTE ]
and there will be a massive debt for equity exchange.... and existing shareholders will find their holdings near worthless.....
[/ QUOTE ]
What's the alternative? A buyer? No chance? Alternative investment? I can't see it.
[ QUOTE ]
In reality, if the primary investors are institutional, the more likely outcome in the near future is an EGM, a new board, and a massive change programme.....
[/ QUOTE ]
Except Raymarine aren't underperforming compared to the industry - it's all down to the current market. So hard to see how replacing the current Board can help.
[ QUOTE ]
So, IME, given all that, the only way this kind of share can make money at present for investors is in short term trading.... and thats a game for the very brave at anything above pocket money.......
[/ QUOTE ]
I did ok out of Marconi when they were going to the wall with about a month's salary worth, in and out a few times. I don't regret it. Enough to make it exciting but not enough to cause significant harm if it goes wrong.
Very dangerous strategy IMHO....
[/ QUOTE ]
No. The last investment was the dangerous one. Now I can just invest my profits from the last one and if I lose it Raymarine owes me nothing.
[ QUOTE ]
and there will be a massive debt for equity exchange.... and existing shareholders will find their holdings near worthless.....
[/ QUOTE ]
What's the alternative? A buyer? No chance? Alternative investment? I can't see it.
[ QUOTE ]
In reality, if the primary investors are institutional, the more likely outcome in the near future is an EGM, a new board, and a massive change programme.....
[/ QUOTE ]
Except Raymarine aren't underperforming compared to the industry - it's all down to the current market. So hard to see how replacing the current Board can help.
[ QUOTE ]
So, IME, given all that, the only way this kind of share can make money at present for investors is in short term trading.... and thats a game for the very brave at anything above pocket money.......
[/ QUOTE ]
I did ok out of Marconi when they were going to the wall with about a month's salary worth, in and out a few times. I don't regret it. Enough to make it exciting but not enough to cause significant harm if it goes wrong.
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Except Raymarine aren't underperforming compared to the industry - it's all down to the current market. So hard to see how replacing the current Board can help.
[/ QUOTE ]Because the financiers are interested in nothing other than recovering their funding, and they'll use the covenants to enfore this..... so the normal process is that the senior non exec will get a quiet phone call from the major investors, who will quietly express their disatisfaction to him/her at the risk of their investments dissappearing as the financiers take control.... he/she will the gently advise the board that its either a bit of a clean out or an EGM, and that the investors are looking closely at the covenants held by the financiers... thats the primary responsibility of the senior non exec anyway... to protect the shareholders interests...
The institutions really won't care that much about its performance against the industry... (I haven't looked to see if it is in line), but rather its performance against their expectations of it as either a growth or income stock....
The new board will be very clear that their role is to ensure that everything, and I mean everything, possible is done to avoid breaching the covenants.... including wholesale re-engineering of the company's cost base, withdrawal from markets, spinning off parts of the business... just whatever it takes....
This may have a positive impact on the shareprice if the institutions develop a sense of confidence in the new board and its strategy... or it may just kill it...
To invest profits isn't a bad strategy as you point out, the downside is that you are back where you started... but Raymarine doesn't look great in the short term as an investment to me even on that basis....
Except Raymarine aren't underperforming compared to the industry - it's all down to the current market. So hard to see how replacing the current Board can help.
[/ QUOTE ]Because the financiers are interested in nothing other than recovering their funding, and they'll use the covenants to enfore this..... so the normal process is that the senior non exec will get a quiet phone call from the major investors, who will quietly express their disatisfaction to him/her at the risk of their investments dissappearing as the financiers take control.... he/she will the gently advise the board that its either a bit of a clean out or an EGM, and that the investors are looking closely at the covenants held by the financiers... thats the primary responsibility of the senior non exec anyway... to protect the shareholders interests...
The institutions really won't care that much about its performance against the industry... (I haven't looked to see if it is in line), but rather its performance against their expectations of it as either a growth or income stock....
The new board will be very clear that their role is to ensure that everything, and I mean everything, possible is done to avoid breaching the covenants.... including wholesale re-engineering of the company's cost base, withdrawal from markets, spinning off parts of the business... just whatever it takes....
This may have a positive impact on the shareprice if the institutions develop a sense of confidence in the new board and its strategy... or it may just kill it...
To invest profits isn't a bad strategy as you point out, the downside is that you are back where you started... but Raymarine doesn't look great in the short term as an investment to me even on that basis....
lw395
Well-Known Member
They seem to have spent all their (borrowed?) cash on a flashy new building, then sacked a load of development staff.
Some of their products are OK, but once you've had B&G, Raymarine stuff seems so-so.
I will not be surprised if they collapse.
Some of their products are OK, but once you've had B&G, Raymarine stuff seems so-so.
I will not be surprised if they collapse.
