raising, reefing, dousing without engine

[ghostlymoron]

The traditional modern way of adjusting sails is by turning head to wind with the aid of the engine. How is this done without using the engine?

 

[jwilson]

The traditional modern way of adjusting sails is by turning head to wind with the aid of the engine. How is this done without using the engine?

Why would you turn the engine on to do anything to the sails, unless it was because you were then heading back into harbour and wanted the engine anyway?

 

[BrianH]

Why would you turn the engine on to do anything to the sails, unless it was because you were then heading back into harbour and wanted the engine anyway?

When reefing in a rising wind. It is a distinct problem for those with rolling boom or in-boom mainsail reefing. I have the latter but even with an articulating luff I have difficulty reefing in a strong wind without the engine to keep head to wind.

Sailing on headsail only I cannot get high enough to have the mainsail completely in-line to the wind. Without it being so the sail will have enough pressure to drive forward and bunch up at the furling drum and jam.

 

[James_Calvert]

...turning head to wind ...

etc

What is the OP on about? Need some context - he can't be after an elementary guide to sailing can he?

 

[prv]

I know exactly what the OP is on about.

I used to sail a gaff-rigged boat. One of the benefits of this rig is that you can hoist, reef, unreef and lower the mainsail on any point of sail. Dead downwind is not recommended as there will be some friction against the shrouds, but it is possible. Any other direction and the sail goes up and down as sweetly as if head to wind, because it's sliding on a round spar and it makes no difference which way the hull underneath it is pointing. So if I was sailing up the river on a beam reach, and wanted to lower the main to slow down and be ready for berthing, I could do so without altering course. Similarly if I wanted to shake out a reef - keep sailing under jib and staysail and perhaps mizzen, put the tillerpilot on to hold the same course, then sheet out the main, release the reef pendants, re-hoist it and sheet back in. Continuing to sail all the time.

Now we have a boat with a fully-battened bermudan main, running in a slot up the back of the mast. The batten cars have little wheels on them, but even so they will only run smoothly when the sail is directly aft of the mast. The lazy jacks are also liable to snag the sail unless head to wind or nearly so; admittedly I could cast them off before the manoeuvre, but there's at least two reasons why that's going to slow things down. I can get the sail down with the wind some way either side of the bow, by hauling it bodily downwards, but hoisting it while far enough off the wind for the jib to fill puts too much load on the halyard and would require winching practically the whole way. Head to wind, I can haul it to the masthead by hand and only use the winch for final tensioning.

So if a boat like ours needs to be head to wind to do anything to the mainsail, and to remain head to wind for any length of time it must have steerage way, which the sails can't provide in that position, then it's easy to see why some people think they need the engine.

That's what the OP is on about; I know how I deal with it but I'd be interested to see what others have to say.

Pete

 

[laika]

Now we have a boat with a fully-battened bermudan main, running in a slot up the back of the mast. The batten cars have little wheels on them, but even so they will only run smoothly when the sail is directly aft of the mast. The lazy jacks are also liable to snag the sail unless head to wind or nearly so

My cars run on a track on the front of the mast and fortunately present no such limitations. Reefing upwind is simply a matter of reefing down the headsail (so we're not too tippy over-y for the next bit), cranking the headsail in and coming hard on the wind, down tracking the main, releasing the kicker, putting on the topping lift (actually unnecessary as we have a gas strut), easing the main until it's flappy and reefing. Lazy jacks are attached to the boom so change angle with it.

In other words you can't get the whole boat in line with the wind for long, but you can get the boom in line with it, which is what counts.

 

[James_Calvert]

I know exactly what the OP is on about.....but I'd be interested to see what others have to say. Pete

Thanks Pete, very clearly explained. I just couldn't see the problem; we have a masthead rig, so relatively small mainsail which we can raise or drop quickly enough before the boat pays off. And we can reef or unreef it easily with the boat jogging along closehauled under the genoa with the mainsail eased well out so it isn't drawing.

Comes of my having a lot of experience in one boat but not a lot in others I suppose.

 

[tillergirl]

I think a lot depends on the er, I'll call it 'stability' of your boat. My old fashioned, slow MAB will generally lie head to wind long enough to hoist or drop the sails with the main sheet loose so if towards the end of hoisting or lowering, she takes a sheer the mainsail will not have (much) drive in it whether hoisted or flapping waiting to be tamed. But generally hoisting I will have motored out of the creek where my mooring is so I will often put on the tillerpilot to steer her into the wind if I am single handed (usual). But not always. I seldom start the engine dropping the sails; just round up into the wind, hobble to the mast, take up the slack on the topping lift and flip off the main halliard. the (flash) new sail I have to help down.

But I can understand that a less 'stable' (i.e. a trimmer, faster, livelier craft) would be easier under engine and tillerpilot if single handed. The only thing that matters is the absence of trauma; we don't go out there to be stressed!

 

[BrianH]

I remember my Trapper 500 with bolt-rope luff running in a mast slot that was essential to be head to wind to raise or lower. Anything else would cause too much friction of sail against slot and be immoveable. I partially cured the problem by fitting sliders but it still needed to be head to wind to lower in strong winds as even then there was too much pressure on them to move freely. Only by using the engine could the head be enough into the wind to lower, the headsail was never adequate.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I fine reach with the genoa adjusted for close hauled and let the boom out, the back wind from the genoa holds the luff clear of the mast.

However, I removed the lazy jacks, full length battens and cars at the end of the first season of ownership as the car wheels were worn and the system was just too stiff. Head to wind, which involved a series of scoops to windward, losing way, bear off and luffing again (all with the wheel locked) I could get about 1/2 to 3/4 hoist before needing the winch, now I can get full hoist on standard sliders. The main was adjusted to be used with standard battens. I have not missed the stack pack and fully battened sail and will probably not specify when I replace the main.

 

[KellysEye]

>I fine reach with the genoa adjusted for close hauled and let the boom out, the back wind from the genoa holds the luff clear of the mast.

That's how we use to put reefs in the main or take them out, it's quite a lengthy process and as you said it's difficult to hold head to wind. Since the genoa is on a furler it's a different matter furling is quick so we found head to wind is fine.

 

[prv]

I fine reach with the genoa adjusted for close hauled and let the boom out, the back wind from the genoa holds the luff clear of the mast.

That's clever. I'll have to see if it works on mine.

Having to steer any particular course in order to handle the sail still feels like a backwards step from my flexible convenient gaff rig though

Pete

 

[pcatterall]

I fine reach with the genoa adjusted for close hauled and let the boom out, the back wind from the genoa holds the luff clear of the mast.

However, I removed the lazy jacks, full length battens and cars at the end of the first season of ownership as the car wheels were worn and the system was just too stiff. Head to wind, which involved a series of scoops to windward, losing way, bear off and luffing again (all with the wheel locked) I could get about 1/2 to 3/4 hoist before needing the winch, now I can get full hoist on standard sliders. The main was adjusted to be used with standard battens. I have not missed the stack pack and fully battened sail and will probably not specify when I replace the main.

That's interesting as we also have no lazy jacks. We also have to raise and reef at the mast. We have always used the engine but it would be nice not to have to. I guess that could whip our main down using the back wind from the genoa but there till remains the struggle in getting the sail into some sort of order with ties, usually less of a struggle with engine on and someone at the helm.

 

[Mandarin331]

That's clever. I'll have to see if it works on mine.

Having to steer any particular course in order to handle the sail still feels like a backwards step from my flexible convenient gaff rig though

Pete

+1, if I could get an affordable GRP gaff rigged boat about 30' I would go back like a shot for the sheer ease of lowering & reducing sail, unfortunately they don't seem to exist as (almost) everything built in the 70's/early 80's was masthead bermudan.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

That's interesting as we also have no lazy jacks. We also have to raise and reef at the mast. We have always used the engine but it would be nice not to have to. I guess that could whip our main down using the back wind from the genoa but there till remains the struggle in getting the sail into some sort of order with ties, usually less of a struggle with engine on and someone at the helm.

Flaking the main with luff sliders is very easy single handed: -

1. Drop the main completely and temporarily tie off the halyard. I just grab it at the head board pull it down and hook it under the halyard winch (shackle is still attached to the headboard).
2. Centre the boom and secure the mainsheet and grab 3 sail ties.
3. Pull the sail all to the leeward side.
4. Grab the first reefing pennant at the leech eye and haul back tight along one side of the boom, keeping the leech eye flat against the boom
5. Maintaining tension, pull the fold that forms between the leech eye and the luff over the boom so that you have an even flake each side.
6. Repeat with the second reefing pennant.
7. Wrap a sail tie around the sail at the second reefing pennant flake.
8. Repeat at the 3rd etc
9. Tidy up lines, halyard, add in extra sail ties.

It takes me less than a minute to flake and secure the sail. I should add that the cockpit hood needs to be down too.

 

[greggron]

That's interesting as we also have no lazy jacks. We also have to raise and reef at the mast. We have always used the engine but it would be nice not to have to. I guess that could whip our main down using the back wind from the genoa but there till remains the struggle in getting the sail into some sort of order with ties, usually less of a struggle with engine on and someone at the helm.

When single handing I either sail her close hauled on the genny with the main sheet slackened off so it's easy to bring the main down with plenty of time to put the sail ties on. Alternatively, I go hove to and take all the time in the world (Sadler 25)

 

[NormanS]

The traditional modern way of adjusting sails is by turning head to wind with the aid of the engine. How is this done without using the engine?

It's hardly traditional. Boats have been sailing for millenia, engines have only been around for a couple of centuries. Lots of sailing boats manage fine without engines.

 

[xyachtdave]

One of the Dragon sailors at the yacht club reckons he's 'sailed (different boats) all over the world and never needed to reef the main...'

I think he's either had a few masts or been very lucky with the weather.

 

[ghostlymoron]

It's hardly traditional. Boats have been sailing for millenia, engines have only been around for a couple of centuries. Lots of sailing boats manage fine without engines.

That's why I said modern. I'm interested in ways of sail handling without resorting to the engine.

 

[theoldsalt]

Doesn't anyone heave-to anymore ?