Raggies Query...

[BobE]

I ordered and have now received a new Radial headsail.
The measured max. Luff length was measured (by the Sailmaker's man) as 11640mm.
I asked them to make a LARGE light weather sail for the boat.. ( To give me a better chance against the modern light weather flyers.)
My old headsails have been hoisted relative to a marked halyard and could just be pulled out so that the sheave actually marked the halyard "Stop ball" I can of course tighten the rig with the backstay.

I hoisted the new sail on a nice quiet day and although I didn't use a winch handle, sweated it up pretty damn tight by hand. (2 turns on a Lewmar 16) The original mark is now 6 to 8 inches short of the mark on the coach roof.. Didn't measure accurately at the time..

I phoned the sailmaker and asked if the cloth stretched or shrunk in use ?
Was told that it wouldn't shrink and there would be very little stretch

If the difference is 6 inches it's a shortage of 1.309 percent on the luff.
And 8 inches is 1.746

Furtermore it's now a (marginally) lower aspect ratio.

When I spoke of lost sail area they muttered about "leech hollow"…

Should I pursue the matter??? The sail was NOT cheap…

No names, no pack drill.
Just like your thoughts??
Thanks in advance.
Cheers Bob E….


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[snowleopard]

it's pretty unusual to have a sail that goes right up tight to the sheave. i think most sailmakers would give you a few inches of clearance. without it you would find it impossible to adjust mast rake. you're better off with a bit of a margin to adjust and add a bit of tension.

i had a new luff put on my jib recently and it's a little too long so i can't put enough tension on it. in your shoes i'd be happy to accept it.

a long shackle or short strop at the tack would probably help as sail area at deck level isn't doing much.

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[Robin]

Your OLD sail may well have stretched and no sailmaker will make a new sail where the luff is so long the halyard stopper is up against the sheave, that risks you not being able to apply enough luff tension, which BTW you have yet to do if you haven't use the winch handle. If the sail is a roller reefing one too there also has to be room for the top swivel and the correct lead angle to avoid halyard wrap. The actual loss of sail area is miniscule, imagine a 6" triangle of cloth sewn back on the head to fill the gap, that is all that is missing, about 0.125sq ft, I don't think your sailmaker will be going on a Xmas break with the difference!

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[BobE]

Thanks,
I've a mast head rig so most of the bend is pre bend with the babystay and back stay... Problem is this is the first new sail I.ve had on this one so I'm just not certain... Sadler the designer always (I'm told) whacked everything in really tight...
The top shackle on the new genoa is actually about 1/4 inch shorter than the old one which was twisted to fit the Hood luff tape. So that makes the shortfall more than estimated...
One or two inches I would'nt have queried... that would have been around 1/2 percent..
Black art this sailmaking tho'
Thanks 'n Cheers Bob E...

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[BobE]

The actual forestay was measured as 11960 and yes I agree about the old one almost certainly having stretched...
And of course you're right on tension I didn't want to really whack it up first time om the pontoom with no air to set it... but I was frankly aghast when I could'nt find the halyard mark 'cause it was out of sight in front of the spray hood!

But please keep em coming you are reassuring me and I'm feeling better by the second..
Just a thought you and the leopard are not in the guild of sailmakers R U ?? ;-) ;-)
Cheers Bob E.....

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[DJE]

Recently bought a new radial genoa myself but I deliberately wanted a sail smaller than the old one. I am keeping the old full size sail for very light winds. Of all the measurements that the sailmaker took the luff length was the one we had the most discussion about. He measured the rig and the old sail and we agreed the luff length of the new sail while he was on the boat. You need it short enough to be able to apply full luff tension at the top of the sail's wind range but not short enough to give a risk of halyard wrap when using the furling gear. With my old sail the halyard shackle is tight against the sheave and with the new one it is 4" to 6" clear when tensioned; so it doesn't sound like yours is very different.
A few years ago I bought a No. 3 Genoa off the peg from Mike Lucas and that was about 5" shorter than the old No.1 in the luff. I had to fit a short strop to stop the halyard wrapping round the furling gear. I've since added a shackle at the bottom to get the top swivel a bit higher.
I must admit that I have come to accept that Sadlers will never catch the lightweights in light weather. Give us a beat into a force 5 though and things start to look very different.

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[BlueSkyNick]

Can't give you the same technical advice as the others.

However, I am sure if you have a large whiskey and lie down for an hour, the sail will not be a problem at all.

<hr width=100% size=1>Tide and time wait for no man.

 

[Robin]

Nope, no connection to sailmakers at all. I was lucky once many years ago when my sailmaker insisted on measuring personally for a new suit of sails for a Liz 30 I was going to race, rather than using the IOR Certificate. If he had made the genoa to the IOR dimension it would have been 6" too LONG and a brand new sail would have needed recutting.

Geometrically speaking the area calculations can throw up some apparent anomalies too. Area is 0.5 x luff x perpendicular luff to clew. This means that a sail cut with a very high clew will have the same area as one that is low (deck sweeper) if the perpendicular length remains the same - but the high clew one will look much smaller.

Enjoy the new sail whoever made it, a new sail always livens up the performance no end, nothing worse than an old design stretched sail for slowing a boat down.

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[Marsupial]

Are you sure about your maths? its not a little trangle at all, from the head of the sail its a vee shape that extends from the head to the tack and from the head to the clew, or if we add material to the foot its a trapesium shaped panel, about 6" deep, slightly longer than the original foot, either way IMHO not an insignificant area. - it depends whether you are buying or selling I suppose.

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[Robin]

Short answer is no, not sure! If you use 0.5 x luff x perpendicular, and assume a 40ft luff, 15ft perpendicular (300 sq ft sail) then the difference is I think 3.75 sq ft or 1.25%. But if you added a 6" narrow triangle at the top it would fill the gap yet give very little area, whilst at the bottom it would appear to give more area, tapering off to the clew. Any mathematicians/sailmakers out there?

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[BobE]

Thanks for the input.
I'll have to see about the halyard Wrap situation...and all I wanted was to get a new Genny not climb the bloomin' mast again..

Agree with your comment

"Give us a beat into a force 5 though and things start to look very different. "

Even with my lifting plate 32!!
Cheers Bob E..

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[BobE]

Nick, You rascel you, I was tryin' too keep off the juice 'cause I'm riding "Shotgun" on a coach to Aachen tonight.. and now I'll fall to the demon again.... What a lovely way to go tho'!
Cheers Bob E.....

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[jimi]

Thought it was usually the bushes you fell in .. not the demon .. things must be deteriorating .. ye'll be seeing flying pink elephants and an honest labour govt next!

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[geoffatstanpit]

I'd have thought they'd have given you a yard or two more on the foot if you asked for a BIG genny. I can understand them not going too long on the luff for reasons discussed. Did they use lighter cloth? I think that if your old and new weigh in at much the same I'd start arguing.

Geoff

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[BobE]

Jimi,
Externally they may well be deteriorating... But internally Whoopee!!!
I might have known I'd get some sort of crack back from Nick and You !!!
Cheers Bob E..

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[BobE]

Wonder if I could lay the three of them out in the club sometime.
Accurate weighing would also be a difficult thing...
But it's a thought.
If I'm to have a moan I mustn't hang about too long..
Hot striking irons etc..
Thanks to all for the sensible input and Nick and Jimi for the grins..
Cheers Bob E..

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[wicked]

Bob - I think you are just moaning about your new sail so you have an excuse for always being behind me round the cans !!!

Dave

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[Guest]

Confused .....

>The original mark is now 6 to 8 inches short of the mark on the coach roof..<

How does a Luff reach a mark on the coach-roof ? A sail foot would .....

>Furtermore it's now a (marginally) lower aspect ratio.<

This implies a short luff and long foot, so the above should be PAST the mark on coach-roof ??

>If the difference is 6 inches it's a shortage of 1.309 percent on the luff.
And 8 inches is 1.746<

Yep if shortage of length is in Luff ..... but again back to coachroof statement .....

Oh and leech hollow ..... sounds like a cop-out.

Suggest you hammer sailmaker and get the proper answers or threaten take sail back and refund money.

Finally - If I was to want a sail - I would a) measure myself and make note of all details, b) have sailmaker measure and compare - sorting out differences BEFORE sail is made / cut.

That way you get what you set-out to get ..... and not what he thinks you should have.




<hr width=100% size=1>Cheers Nigel ..... <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.geocities.com/solentlifeuk/>http://www.geocities.com/solentlifeuk/</A>

 

[Guest]

Re: Confused ..... Got it now ....

You have halyards etc. led back to cockpit along coachroof !!! Silly me.

Still think you should have measured yourself before though .....


<hr width=100% size=1>Cheers Nigel ..... <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.geocities.com/solentlifeuk/>http://www.geocities.com/solentlifeuk/</A>

 

[dwatson]

Re: Confused ..... Got it now ....

What are your halyards made of?

If they are not Spectra or dyneema or some other new fangled non stretch stuff 6-8 inches of halyrd stretch when wound on would not be unreasonable.



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