Raggie rage. Was I in the wrong?

[realslimshady]

I was out in the solent yesterday and I have sympathy-trying to cruise into Cowes at 6 knots (the Mrs hates going fast unless it's flat calm) you needed eyes everywhere, sailboats tacking and plenty of them moving faster than us-needed a blast of throttle a few times to get out of the way.
Older and wiser, I'd say.

 

[jimmynoboat]

the guy and what I assume was his son were hanging off the side on some soft of net?

Fishing boat?

 

[Seahope]

Sounds like something from Waterworld.

I saw a really unusual small boat last weekend around the entrance to Chichester Habour which was literally going 'like the wind'. I'm guessing it had an underwater hydroplane since I could see a couple of thin carbon fibre looking fins attached to the the rest of the boat which was about 4 feet above the water. The helmsman was leaning out on a net to offset the lean of the boat into the wind. It was moving really fast when I was sticking to the speed limit. I really wouldn't fancy being on that!

 

[penfold]

Sounds like a foil moth.

 

[Seahope]

Sounds like a foil moth.

Thank you. It was indeed!

 

[EugeneR]

We've had the same problem with these "foil moths" trying to run us down at high speed when we are leaving Chichester harbor at 6 knots, sometimes two or three in parallel and I have to accellerate quite hard to get out of their way.

They may have right of way however they seem to be taking the **** by aiming for the nearest mobo and expecting it to jump out of the way. At some point there is a going to be an accident.

 

[fergie_mac66]

Windsmurfs

We've had the same problem with these "foil moths" trying to run us down at high speed when we are leaving Chichester harbor at 6 knots, sometimes two or three in parallel and I have to accellerate quite hard to get out of their way.

They may have right of way however they seem to be taking the **** by aiming for the nearest mobo and expecting it to jump out of the way. At some point there is a going to be an accident.

Sympathise not seen them before . but had several incidents with wind smurfs playing chicken (in cat ) one in particular a a good few years ago had a series of 3 or 4 ( from nowhere at speed) across our bows going into Christchurch on the ebb, full power both engine one fell of no more than 6 feet in front of us our momentum carried us straight over him, went between the hulls altho cut engines till he came out the tunnel! We were somewhat shocked !

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I get really hacked off by this. If you can't control your boat well enough to the extent that you have to rely on the other party to keep out of your way then you are in the wrong, even if you are the stand-on vessel. Either that or you display NUC day signals. That's absolutely clear in col-regs and more to the point is common sense too.

It isn't acceptable to blast through a busy harbour and expect a motor boat to keep out of your way unless you can maintain a constant heading.

It's about time Chichester got a grip of it's dinghy sailors - a motor boat at 15-20 knots in the harbour would no doubt be roundly cursed and fined if caught even though it is in pretty good control and can keep a steady course. I've only visited Chichester a couple of times but was horrified at the antics on the one occasion there was dinghy racing in progress.

It's just a general reply by the way, in case someone reads it personally - I'm just annoyed at the attitude of some sailors and, from what little I know of Chichester, some race committees too.

 

[Silent Lady]

We all have responsibilities

Just because the sail boat is in the right he cannot just ram you and say its your fault . You should have seen him . So you are at fault but he is also at fault for not realising he had not been seen . He cannot just go charging around and expect everyone to get out of his way . There are many rules ColRegs perhaps now may be the time to have a look at them .

You have to have to eyes everywhere nowdays but remember if they are comming from behind . ie. overtaking then all you have to do is hold your course and speed and they have to keep clear of you . They cannot just come along side and expect you to move over .

You could also try one of the many courses that are run during the evening when its dark at 3pm and the boats all tucked up for the winter .

SWMBO has a Cockpit Companion . Very useful .

All Sailing Boats carry numbers on their sails if they race . Others just have numbers anyway . If you get agro again get the name of the boat and number and see if you can find which sailing club he belongs to . A word with the Commodore with regard to language may see him think twice next time .

A Raggie ..

 

[benjenbav]

Pah, we were out in Chi Harbour on Saturday and saw ricky_s. I waved but he just stared. I'm not sure his reactions are up to much.

 

[DAKA]

;-) Worthy of the great DAKA.

I take exception to your post, its simply not true................



I would have considered the raggies brazen breach of the col regs suitable for space on scuttlebruks

Further I would not have expanded the details to include the fact that the raggie was overtaking and obviously had a duty to keep clear until at least 50 high rate raggies had posted showing how foolish their ancient misinterpretation of col regs are that they have a right to get in everyones way


On a serious note , the jokes banded on YBW about power giving way to sail and standing on, along with the usual jokes over a pint at the club bar can be very dangerous, this is a clear example how some idiots cast off with an arrogant view to col regs and some will sadly never return.

 

[ricky_s]

Pah, we were out in Chi Harbour on Saturday and saw ricky_s. I waved but he just stared. I'm not sure his reactions are up to much.

Hi Benjenbav,

I did see a boat just behind me called Snowgoose and wondered if it was you. I am sure we did wave to you.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I get really hacked off by this. If you can't control your boat well enough to the extent that you have to rely on the other party to keep out of your way then you are in the wrong, even if you are the stand-on vessel. Either that or you display NUC day signals. That's absolutely clear in col-regs and more to the point is common sense too.

It isn't acceptable to blast through a busy harbour and expect a motor boat to keep out of your way unless you can maintain a constant heading.

It's about time Chichester got a grip of it's dinghy sailors - a motor boat at 15-20 knots in the harbour would no doubt be roundly cursed and fined if caught even though it is in pretty good control and can keep a steady course. I've only visited Chichester a couple of times but was horrified at the antics on the one occasion there was dinghy racing in progress.

It's just a general reply by the way, in case someone reads it personally - I'm just annoyed at the attitude of some sailors and, from what little I know of Chichester, some race committees too.

Agree with that. There seems to be one rule for us and one for them. They also fly thru the anchorage areas as well where a slight misjudgement could cause a big accident. I would argue that a sailing dinghy at 15-20kts is more dangerous than a mobo because it has less ability to change course at that speed

 

[robertj]

What really pisses me off is no matter who is in the wrong it doesn't give them the right to swear and abuse the other person.

I have beenin positions where the motor boater was in the wring and I altered couse, not worth throwing a wobbly, I do find the worse for this are sailers who I am one, who sometimes feel it's there god given right to abjuse other boaters.
Overtaking is prime example sail boats seem to think they have right of way which the do not!

 

[rwoofer]

I have sypathy and you were probably in the right...but from the small but fast dinghy perspective.

Sometimes you do have a blind panic situation in a small but fast dinghy and you do lose control, effectively you can't steer where you like, in a gust the boat either falls over or to keep it upright and in some sort of control you have to change course by 20 degrees or more, all unplanned of course. I had one incident (almost) as I was happily overtaking a small rib, a gust hit us and we could have blown over and landed the mast on him or accelareted over his stern, so I asked him politely but firmly if he could apply some more throttle to allow us room to manouvre. There wasn't much time to explain as you can't de power a fast dinghy when sailing downwind so a gust simply means you go from 10 knots to 20+ and the boat veers of downwind whilst you try to wrestle control of the beast. We call it fun most of the time and this is what it looks like.

Don't buy this as I used to sail a twin trapeze high performance dinghy. The only two reasons you think you can't manoeuvre are because a) you don't want to capsize through overpowering or b) you don't want to loose speed by dumping the spinnaker (admittedly control might also get difficult).

I don't dinghy sail any more, but I think one of the problems is that in dinghy racing you are often used to extremely tight situations all the time and therefore will judge things far more finely then any leisure sailor (both sail and motor). To the leisure sailor many dinghies approaching look like collision courses, whereas to the dinghy sailor it might not have even occurred to them that a collision course was on.

Races are competitive situations, so personally I make every effort in my boat to avoid getting in the way, but I would say it is considerably easier for me as I understand dinghy tactics and can mostly predict what they will do well in advance. I can sympathise with the OP situation even if he was not stand-on. I would just chalk it up to experience and try to get better at identifying and avoiding situations.

 

[z1ppy]

could someone point me in the direction of the rules that say the speed restrictions in Chichester (or any restricted area for that matter) are only applicable to motor powered craft?

is there any difference between a motorboat doing 20 kts and a sailboat doing 20 kts. (aside from the wash issue as my boat at 20 kts creates very little wash)

we were in chichester a few weeks ago and had a very similar thing happen!!

 

[ricky_s]

could someone point me in the direction of the rules that say the speed restrictions in Chichester (or any restricted area for that matter) are only applicable to motor powered craft?

is there any difference between a motorboat doing 20 kts and a sailboat doing 20 kts. (aside from the wash issue as my boat at 20 kts creates very little wash)

we were in chichester a few weeks ago and had a very similar thing happen!!

As the OP I looked into it. Not good!

http://www.conservancy.co.uk/assets/assets/water_byelaws.pdf

Snippit

The master of any power-driven vessel shall not,
subject to the requirements of maintaining adequate
steerage way and control, suffer or cause her to be
navigated or driven in the harbour at a speed exceeding
eight knots through, on or over the water, unless the
consent in writing of the Harbourmaster has previously
been obtained. Provided that this byelaw shall not apply to
any vessel on any occasion when it is being used for
Conservancy, police, fire-fighting or rescue operations in
circumstances where such speed limit would be likely to
hinder the use of the vessel for the purpose for which it was
being used on that occasion.

 

[DAKA]

Speed restriction applies to powered vessels crazy, but the sailing boats still have a duty of care and there are extra harbour rules in addition to col regs that make it clear they should no impede small motor boats in any mooring fairway.

The way forward is for you and every one to report these incidents to the HM
Date
time
description
where it took place
sail number

here
harbourmaster@conservancy.co.uk

You need a pen and paper handy to record sail numbers.

same thing happened to us a few weeks ago, I had to go full astern, if I had been saving fuel/engine hours on one engine he would have tacked into my anchor, the race was set full width of the channel, if I knew which club it was I would have also complained to the committee.

If several agree I will also send my complaint in.

 

[z1ppy]

not trying to catch anyone out, just interested that it really does appear to be different rules for power and sail!

there was me pottering up the river at my usual Hamble river 6 kts when i should have nudged up to 8 kts to get a really big wash from our hull at that speed!

 

[fireball]

I get really hacked off by this. If you can't control your boat well enough to the extent that you have to rely on the other party to keep out of your way then you are in the wrong, even if you are the stand-on vessel. Either that or you display NUC day signals. That's absolutely clear in col-regs and more to the point is common sense too.

It isn't acceptable to blast through a busy harbour and expect a motor boat to keep out of your way unless you can maintain a constant heading.

It's about time Chichester got a grip of it's dinghy sailors - a motor boat at 15-20 knots in the harbour would no doubt be roundly cursed and fined if caught even though it is in pretty good control and can keep a steady course. I've only visited Chichester a couple of times but was horrified at the antics on the one occasion there was dinghy racing in progress.

It's just a general reply by the way, in case someone reads it personally - I'm just annoyed at the attitude of some sailors and, from what little I know of Chichester, some race committees too.

Really hacked off and you've been through Chichester a couple of times? Doesn't quite add up ...

The reply about Asymetrics above is completely correct ... get a gust and, in order to stay upright you have to bear away 20*° and accelerate very quickly.
Most of the asymetric helms will be look 0.5Nm ahead of where they are to see what the obstruction is and will treat other boats as obstructions rather than giveway vessels...
On the few occasions when closing speeds are much slower (both vessels going the same way) then it would be really helpful for the giveway vessel to undertake their obligations as when they have their kites up these asymetric beasts really cannot do massive course changes to avoid you - they can fall in if they really have to though ...