Rafting responsibilities

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Andy Bav

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Hoping to post CI report soon, but one thought crossed my mind after our experience.

If you raft up against someone but dont run your own lines ashore and either you and / or your fellow raftee breaks free in the night and cause chaos in the locale either to your or someone elses vessel, who is legally at fault ?

I must admit, we secuered ourselves to the boat alongside the pontoon, but not the pontoon itself, and a french boat tied up to us in the same way. So if we broke away as a raft, who is responsible ? Thankfully for us, what little wind there was, was blowing us all onto the pontoon, but it did get me thinking....
 
It's each and every skippers responsibility to make sure his vessel is secure! And yes if rafting up your lines should reach the shore so your own boat is secure. Never expect someone else to take responsibility!
 
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If I moor to a pontoon or another boat I don't accept or recognise any responsibility for another berthing on me.

I do hold a duty of care to the berth I have secured to to see this is done safely and without damage to that vessel.

I am not sure this duty of care would exist from the inner boat to me - he may not have had any say in my choice to moor to him.

If in turn the outer boat/s doesn't make additional precautions to secure his boat, not only would that be his responsibility, I as an inner boat would argue he had overloaded my gear and contributed / caused a significant reason for me breaking away in the first place, therefore the raftee/s not properly secured would bear the onus of responsibility, surely.
 
I've rafted up only a few tames, mostly as the inner boat. I've never asked the outer boat to take its lines ashore. Quite the opposite: I've encouraged them not to. First it avoids them stomping all over my boat to do it, and second in any conditions where you're happy to raft in the first place then you have bags of reserve in your cleat strength and don't need to take lines ashore surely

In any case, unless you take the ashore lines at an acute angle to the shore/dock edge, which is generally not possible (I mean, if there was space to do that you wouldn't be rafting in the first place), then the lines are doing no good except for resisting a wind pushing the boats off the quay. I mean, they are doing no good as springs to deal with a current or wind trying to move the boats longways along the quay significantly.

Also if you have say 4 boats rafted you are potentially making lots of knitting

So from an engineering pov I don't really get the "outer boat take lines ashore" thing. Happy to be corrected if I've missed something, and happy to do it if I'm the outer boat and the inner one requests it, but as an inner boat I'd generally discourage it
 
jfm said:
I've rafted up only a few tames, mostly as the inner boat. I've never asked the outer boat to take its lines ashore. Quite the opposite: I've encouraged them not to. First it avoids them stomping all over my boat to do it, and second in any conditions where you're happy to raft in the first place then you have bags of reserve in your cleat strength and don't need to take lines ashore surely

In any case, unless you take the ashore lines at an acute angle to the shore/dock edge, which is generally not possible (I mean, if there was space to do that you wouldn't be rafting in the first place), then the lines are doing no good except for resisting a wind pushing the boats off the quay. I mean, they are doing no good as springs to deal with a current or wind trying to move the boats longways along the quay significantly.

Also if you have say 4 boats rafted you are potentially making lots of knitting

So from an engineering pov I don't really get the "outer boat take lines ashore" thing. Happy to be corrected if I've missed something, and happy to do it if I'm the outer boat and the inner one requests it, but as an inner boat I'd generally discourage it
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You're normally good at engineering stuff but are wrong on this one i reckon. A wind from, say, dead ahead pivots the boat round the fenders. A line ashore therefore clearly reduces the load on the bow lines in this instance.

Lots of reasons not to run one as you've stated. But it not reducing load isn't one of them......
 
We might have to have a bit of a debate here:). I see your point but is it correct? To have the effect you want the outer boat's lines won't have much slack in them. I agree that the outer boat's forward breast line will stop the raft "curving back" with the wind but that helps only in reducing the wind drag of the outer boat by keeping it head to wind. The wind drag of both boats, at a pure head-to-wind value, will still all be taken by the inner boat's dockside cleats
In addition, the parallelogramming of the outer boat's lines will cause those lines to exert a crushing load on the inner boat's hull, which load would be totally absent if the lines were not used.
It's late and I've only thought this through cursorily so I'm happy to hear another pov!
 
In many of the ports I go to, visitor berths are often without available fingers so you have to moor alongside the pontoon and when full you have to raft up. It does not bother me providing the people are polite and considerate.

I think it depends on the weather, marina shelter and the conditions.

Wherever possible raft alongside a boat of similar size to you or larger than you, only on exceptional situations when the boat is smaller than yours.

When you have good shelter and calm weather pontoon lines are not required, when the weather is poor or on an exposed berth you should run lines to the pontoon. Bear in mind the cleat arrangement on the pontoon and the size of the boat on the inside may not make it practical to run shore lines easily as they may rub on the inner boats hull.

When you moor alongside use a suitable bow and stern line and two suitable springs as well as the outer boat to supply adequate suitable fenders.

Common respect is required, where possible don't traipse over the inner boats cockpit or aft deck walk around the front, this is not possible with large mobos as the drop from the foredeck to the pontoon is too great, another option is across the swim platforms which is not always possible where a tender takes up the whole area. In cases where the fore deck is too high and the swim platform blocked by a tender for a boat that is likely to cruise to marinas where rafting is required the owner of that boat should provide a suitable custom ladder that he can rig on either side. Wear suitable footwear, and keep the noise down late at night when walking over another boat.

I think from a liability point of view it is each to look after their own boat and don't jeopardise others' boats by your actions or neglect.
It can be quite sociable to raft up.
 
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Not sure on this either, but is it just in case of disaster? If the inner boat does lose a cleat, or a warp breaks, the whole raft is unstable. Given most rafting lines seem to be drooping into the water, are shore lines another raggie urban myth about better seamanship ;)
 
On the holding pontoons, and in the marina, like was rafted to like. However, in the marina it was a max of 3 deep but on the waiting pontoons the raggies were 9 deep and I thought that in a bit of a blow there would be some wheeling and a lot of creaking...
 
gjgm said:
Not sure on this either, but is it just in case of disaster? If the inner boat does lose a cleat, or a warp breaks, the whole raft is unstable. Given most rafting lines seem to be drooping into the water, are shore lines another raggie urban myth about better seamanship ;)
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Most motorboats I've tied up to seem to have cleats that are more decorative than functional - little stainless things that don't inspire confidence. I generally rig shore lines and a pet hate of mine is shorelines that are left dangling in the water and serve no purpose. They should be tight enough to just take the weight of the boat but not tight enough to compress the fenders on the boat inside. Using them and rigging them properly is seamanlike, hanging them out for decoration without knowing how to use them properly isn't.
 
Most motorboats I've tied up to seem to have cleats that are more decorative than functional - little stainless things that don't inspire confidence - Yes and most sailingboats dont even have a spring cleat....

Anyway, you are responsible yourself of any damage - even if its caused by break of cleat on inner boat. No excuse there.
On the other side there is no standard whether you need your own shore lines or not - e.g. on Helgoland (that funny red german rock in the North Sea) the rules are that everery 2nd boat will have shore lines, but who cares on a quiet day to bring shore lines ashore if you are berthed as number 8 or 10 ?
It is tidal - the quai is 5 meters high at HW and say 10 meters at LW. Just imagine the length of your shore lines. Leave for shopping with the wife at HW and come back at LW, and you ( l'escargot) still expect to keep the lines properly tight ....

The advantage of the slack lines, are that at least there are there and prepared should you need them...

:encouragement:
 
piratos said:
Most motorboats I've tied up to seem to have cleats that are more decorative than functional - little stainless things that don't inspire confidence - Yes and most sailingboats dont even have a spring cleat....

Anyway, you are responsible yourself of any damage - even if its caused by break of cleat on inner boat. No excuse there.
On the other side there is no standard whether you need your own shore lines or not - e.g. on Helgoland (that funny red german rock in the North Sea) the rules are that everery 2nd boat will have shore lines, but who cares on a quiet day to bring shore lines ashore if you are berthed as number 8 or 10 ?
It is tidal - the quai is 5 meters high at HW and say 10 meters at LW. Just imagine the length of your shore lines. Leave for shopping with the wife at HW and come back at LW, and you ( l'escargot) still expect to keep the lines properly tight ....

The advantage of the slack lines, are that at least there are there and prepared should you need them...

:encouragement:
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Mmmm, got decorative little cleats have you? :) Yes you are responsible for damage, that is why I would rather rig shorelines than rely on some decorative little cleat - a few quid to replace a fancy deck ornament is of far less consequence than my boat drifting down the harbour because of second rate equipment on another boat. There is no such thing as a "spring cleat", springs should actually be run from your fore and aft cleat to be most effective - that is assuming that your fore and aft cleats are substantial enough to do the job they're meant for. Although most sailing boats do tend to have centre cleats for convenience or chainplates or a winch as an alternative. I would say though, if you are going to raft, your boat and equipment should be up to the job and you should have the necessary lines. You can't blame anyone else if you haven't and you have a responsibility not to put yourself in a situation you aren't equipped for.

I agree, it isn't always necessary for every boat to rig shorelines on every occasion but when it is necessary they should be rigged properly with purpose, rather than left dangling over the side "just in case" - they should prevent damage not just be there to save your boat after the event.

There are always places with additional difficulties but such exceptions don't excuse not doing things properly elsewhere and anyway, in such places the seamanlike thing is to tend your lines as necessary. I am sure no one would be impressed if you arrived back to find several boats damaged because of your slack shorelines and you said "I left them like that because I went shopping with my wife". Rather goes against your first bit about you being responsible for the damage caused doesn't it?

Helgoland, whilst an interesting little anecdote, is of no relevance to the rafting situations of the vast majority of people on here. If you were to damage someone else's boat because of the inadequacies of your shorelines, saying "Well that's how I would've rigged them in Helgoland" would probably elicit a rather blunt response...;)

There is no advantage to slack shorelines they achieve nothing.
 
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There are a couple of significant differences between sailing boats and motor boats when rafting:
1. Hull shape - yachts tend to have more curvature , at least in the case of older yachts , running aft. So we tend to pivot more about our centres as the tide or wind changes. Hence more need for shore lines to take up the strain, as well as springs from yacht to yacht.
2. Our foredecks are easier to walk around, hence the polite custom of not walking across sterns or through cockpits.

Taken together, it is obviously more difficult to raft a mixed bag of mobos and raggies.
 
Resolution said:
There are a couple of significant differences between sailing boats and motor boats when rafting:
1. Hull shape - yachts tend to have more curvature , at least in the case of older yachts , running aft. So we tend to pivot more about our centres as the tide or wind changes. Hence more need for shore lines to take up the strain, as well as springs from yacht to yacht.
2. Our foredecks are easier to walk around, hence the polite custom of not walking across sterns or through cockpits.

Taken together, it is obviously more difficult to raft a mixed bag of mobos and raggies.
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Without a doubt. In a sailing boat I avoid rafting to a motorboat wherever possible and before anyone gets upset, if I had a motorboat I would avoid rafting to a sailing boat. Ignoring the usual significant difference in height, generally speaking, the easiest place to step off a sailing boat is midships and the easiest place on a motorboat is the bathing platform. They simply are not well matched for providing easy access across each other.
 
l'escargot said:
Mmmm, got decorative little cleats have you?
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LOL, I'm very skeptical that, on average, mobos would score better than sailboats in a contest for the most "useless-but-decorative" cleats. :D
One thing that for some reason many sailboat builders seem unaware of is that just cutting an opening in the gunwale doesn't work as well as a proper fairlead, unless you fancy testing how long it takes for a mooring line to cut, that is.

Re. whether it's better to take the lines ashore or not, having said that my first hand experience is close to none, I pretty much see it as a hair splitting debate.
All I can say is that here in the Med, rafting up is only common with commercial boats, and I can't remember to have ever seen any of them bringing the lines ashore.
And also elsewhere, I've recently seen some 10k tons folks who obviously think it's unnecessary....
Icebreakers.jpg


But none of the above actually answer the main OP question about "who is legally at fault", I reckon.
In this respect, I'm aware of some cases of damages occurred to boats moored in a storm, though I'm talking of boats moored stern to, and I'm not sure if the principle would apply also to rafted up boats.
Anyway, in those cases, I'm told that the generally accepted principle (also by the insurance companies) is that the boat upwind is at fault, whenever a damage occur to a boat on her downwind side.
 
I think JFM's comments are quite reasonable where you are dealing with substantial gear and inner boats that are correctly tied up with lines suffiently tight without being taut. Problem for boats rafting in the typical 25 - 40' category is when the inner boat isn't tied up that well, or the inner boat's mooring cleats are marginal. Rolling is also worse for fat bellied raggies with a wide beam to pivot against but only a narrow part actually onto the pontoon.

Just one or two loose tied boats inside a raft can see the whole lot crashing into the neighbouring raft when the tide or wind changes, as the inner boats roll on their fenders.

In this circumstance as raftee you are still responsbile for your own boat, and you will be placing extra load on the inner boat's cleat / lines, so in this case then I agree with Mark that the shore lines are needed, although not much use unless there is at least some angle in them.

Where I request no shore lines is when a shorter boat ties to me and his shore lines would foul my own ends, but I am satisfied with my own tying techniques that one I will be tight to the berth, so won't roll around the berth, and will have sufficient lines out and correctly tensioned.

I would however expect that if you specifically request no shore lines of a raftee you are defacto accepting responsibility for extra loads on your own gear, and a tacit duty of care to your temporary neghbour that you are properly and sufficiently secured.
 
I have been boating for thirty years.Until recently sailing but now mobo.

Yes sail boats and mobos are different shapes and should avoid rafting with each other wherever possible

There is a lot of weight in a raft of boats, irrespective of sail or mobo. Expecting the inner boat to take all the weight of the raft on its gear is unseamanlike. I was also taught that it is the height of bad manners.

Every boat should have shorelines adjusted not to squeeze the raft but taut enough to share the weight when the wind/tide moves the raft.
 
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