Radar reflector - new rules?

sailorman said:
Do the rules specify a minimum standard,if so can you post a link pls
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What Vic posted is advice from the MCA. It is not the actual regulation.

See here:

Regulation 19. See 2.1.7 and the reference to Annex 15

https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4/solasv/Regulations/regulation19.htm

Annex 15

https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4/solasv/annexes/Annex15.htm

If I am interpreting Annex 15 and the QinetiQ report correctly, the only passive reflectors that were tested that meet the requirements of Annex 15 are the Plastimo 16 inch Octahedral in the catch rain position, the Echomax 230 and (barely) the Firdell Blipper. The Sea-Me active RTE provides an order of magnitude more than the requirements.
 
Poey50 said:
This is what the QinetiQ concludes following tests on these Plastimo types.

"The 4” tube reflector is not considered suitable due to its poor performance. It is also recommended that the 2” tube reflector is not suitable since the performance of this target will be even lower.

It is recommended that poorly performing radar reflectors are not fitted as it is possible that the user could be lulled into a false sense of security believing that their chances of detection has been enhanced."
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BUT by displaying one,one is conforming to the letter of the law.
I am perfectly aware of its limitations & do NOT want a blipper or similar permanently rigged 40 ft up in the air. I will hoist one as i deem necessary
 
Trundlebug said:
Not strictly compliant with the letter of the law, but since AIS wasn't around when SOLAS came out I figured it's certainly compliant with the spirit of it.

I would appreciate the thoughts of the cognoscenti on this, as I still have doubts. (But I'm not prepared to fork out for an active radar reflector as well as AIS).
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I am with you on this subject. I installed an AIS transducer earlier this year.
The solas regulations do talk about AIS in connection with ships.
I have one of the tubular radar reflectors in order to acknowledge the requirement to fit one.
 
Trundlebug said:
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I would appreciate the thoughts of the cognoscenti on this, as I still have doubts. (But I'm not prepared to fork out for an active radar reflector as well as AIS).
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I've thought for a while on how and whether to reply to you. I suspect that most here will unhesitatingly tell you to install an AIS transponder rather than RADAR. They may be right, however I still believe that in poor visibility RADAR is the collision avoidance tool that can be relied on to be used by commercial traffic. I installed the RADAR device about 6 years ago when prices were roughly equal and dont regret the choice. However, I havent since sailed in waters with a preponderance of leisure traffic where an AIS transponder might now be the better choice.
 
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LadyInBed said:
It doesn't matter how big or efficient your radar reflector is if you are hit by a boat that doesn't have radar!
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Which is, of course, an argument for having radar. The alternative, which I used to more or less abide by, is to make progress at a speed which allows you to avoid an object within visual range. Easier said than done.
 
Looking at the wording in the SOLAS regulations (taken from the link on page one).....

2.1.7 if less than 150 gross tonnage and if practicable, a radar reflector or other means, to enable detection by ships navigating by radar at both 9 and 3 GHz;

......this doesn't necessarily say you have to fit what we all seem to be calling "Radar reflectors".

I read it as saying that if practicable you have to have a means of your vessel being detected by radar. If your yacht happens to sport an 11m aluminium mast and you have checked that this does allow your vessel to be detected then I don't see why this wouldn't meet that particular requirement. It may not be a particularly strong reflection, but the regulations don't appear to set a minimum standard, they simply say it must be detectable.

Obviously it is your choice as to whether or not you decide to meet minimum requirements or to enhance your reflection, and it may be that in the event of an incident and a subsequent hearing a deciding body may consider your decision when apportioning culpability in much the same way as they do with cyclists and reflective clothing.
 
I'm told that Mini650 sailors, who race transatlantic and along all the French coastlines, are required to have a radar reflector fitted. The majority sport the Plastimo 2" tube, essentially as it is cheap, has minumum windage, and has the OK from scrutineers. I'm also told they expect little or nothing in way of enhanced radar visibility.
 
zoidberg said:
I'm told that Mini650 sailors, who race transatlantic and along all the French coastlines, are required to have a radar reflector fitted. The majority sport the Plastimo 2" tube, essentially as it is cheap, has minumum windage, and has the OK from scrutineers. I'm also told they expect little or nothing in way of enhanced radar visibility.
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That is correct. The reflector must be carried at a minimum height above sea level and you will see most minis with the reflector taped to the front of the mast at that level. I had mine suspended horizontally below the starboard spreader.

The safety rules also require that a tetrahedral reflector be carried, but this can be disassembled and stowed below. Like some others I also fitted an RTE. my SeaMe was attached to the front of the mast - inside the cabin.
 
"BUT by displaying one,one is conforming to the letter of the law."
I'm not really concerned about the law, being run down by a freighter concerns me.
 
bbg said:
That is correct. The reflector must be carried at a minimum height above sea level and you will see most minis with the reflector taped to the front of the mast at that level. I had mine suspended horizontally below the starboard spreader.

The safety rules also require that a tetrahedral reflector be carried, but this can be disassembled and stowed below. Like some others I also fitted an RTE. my SeaMe was attached to the front of the mast - inside the cabin.
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I don't understand the last paragraph, is your mast inside the cabin?
 
A fisherman in a small boat a few hundred yards from me, in fog asked me if I could see his echo, as he didn't have a reflector, I replied that his echo was about the same as that from a seagull. "Ah", he said, "there's a seagull standing on the bow....I'll nail it down"
 
ghostlymoron said:
Aaaaah. Keel stepped mast. I wouldn't think that the Sea me would give optimum performance in that position.
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It gave sufficient performance from my perspective. It kept the weight low. I didn't want it on the masthead and the only other reasonable place to put it was the transom, where it risked damage. Inside the cabin kept it out of harm's way, and based on the alarms it gave off when it was "pinged" it was being painted from 10 or 12 miles away. That was good enough for me.

It wouldn't work inside a carbon hull, though.
 
Among my one or two remaining friends is one who had some involvement in trialling military aircraft 'chaff dispensers', and he tells me that although the 'dispenser' kit has become hugely complex, the aluminised plastic-strip 'chaff has not. That needs to be cut to the lengths/widths appropriate to the radar frequency spectrum(s) likely to be encountered. In the case of merchant shipping radars, that info is straightforward.

He mused that a bundle of aluminised plastic strips, of widths tbd and about 4' long, could be hoisted up the mast on a spare halyard and, if flown in breeze, would certainly give an enhanced return significantly stronger than Fisherman's seagull.

Even the blow-up coloured foil party balloons in every store for every Halloween, Guy Fawkes and Christmas Party, if several were inflated and hoisted when the need arose, would be more effective than Fisherman's Friend.

He also mentioned that a string of those aluminised foil bags-with taps one finds inside wine boxes, if tied in a line, inflated by mouth through the taps and hoisted as before, would also provide an enhanced return.... due in no small part to the multiple 'corner reflectors' that would be present.

Half-a-dozen of those would give you much the same reflective area as the Echomax Inflatable offering, leaving you change out of £100, as well as the benefit of the contents....
 
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