Racing with a Cruising Chute

[TLouth7]

I have entered a cruiser racing series (Combined Clubs for those on the Orwell), and would be interested to hear any thoughts on racing with a cruising chute (with snuffer). Especially of interest is how to get good VMG on deep legs. The racing is in a reasonably wide estuary, and the boat is a fairly heavy masthead IOR type.

Two weekends ago in fairly light wind we had reasonable success by broad reaching, then heading down, gybing the main and goose-winging, etc.

We could bring the tack of the sail up to windward on the spinnaker pole, but this involves quite a lot of faff and makes gybing quite complex. At that point we should probably just get a symmetric.

Extra challenges are that the spinnaker halyard is below the forestay fitting and the tack line attaches behind the stem fitting (such that we gybe through the fore-triangle). Also the pole uphaul is below the babystay, and currently there is no foreguy fitted.

 

[bobgarrett]

We race with a cruising chute. It is not as effective as a spinnaker but better than nothing. It is easier to handle short-handed than a spinnaker. If the wind is too far aft then it will get blanked by the main so we would goosewing. We can carry it up to 80deg off the wind. I know many recommend gybing a chute between the forestay and the actual sail but we always gybe it in front; let the sail go completely forward as you go dead downwind then pull it in the other side as you turn.
If you add a pole then it is not really a cruising chute but a wrongly shaped spinnaker and I would expect your handicap to have to change to reflect this!

 

[bbg]

First, I would find a way to get comfortable to do it without the snuffer. That will slow things down a lot.

As for running deep, I think you can do it without too much difficulty, if you are prepared to make a bit of an effort. Here is one way.

Rig and set the kite as normal. If you think you need to bring the tack back, rig a guy to the tack and run it through the pole end. Set the pole then ease the tack line as you tension the guy. Do this until the tack line is slack. You also need to ease the sheet to allow the kite to rotate around the forestay.

Reverse the process to return to flying the tack off the bow.

It might seem like a lot of effort, but with practice it will be pretty easy and quick.

 

[flaming]

First, I would find a way to get comfortable to do it without the snuffer. That will slow things down a lot.

As for running deep, I think you can do it without too much difficulty, if you are prepared to make a bit of an effort. Here is one way.

Rig and set the kite as normal. If you think you need to bring the tack back, rig a guy to the tack and run it through the pole end. Set the pole then ease the tack line as you tension the guy. Do this until the tack line is slack. You also need to ease the sheet to allow the kite to rotate around the forestay.

Reverse the process to return to flying the tack off the bow.

It might seem like a lot of effort, but with practice it will be pretty easy and quick.

For a normal setup agreed... But....

He's flying the thing inside the forestay... I can't see an easy way that you can set and douse a cruising chute inside the forestay with the genoa still up, as they want to occupy the same space. The only thing I can think of is to gybe set, hoisting inside the genoa before the gybe and furling as quickly as possible as you gybe, in effect a sort of gybe peel rather than a normal set and douse. But I think that's got snafu written all over it.

On that basis, if the legs are relatively short I'm fairly sure that polling out the genoa is going to fastest in all but the very lightest winds. If the leg is at least 2 miles, then you may get some benefit, especially if it's not DDW, but if DDW and at least about 10 knots TWS, then my considered advice would be to pole out your genoa and leave the kite in the bag.

 

[TLouth7]

Thanks for the thoughts so far. I think there are two separate challenges: hoisting efficiently, and sailing deep efficiently.

In terms of hoisting, I agree that the snuffer slows things down (but it is going to stay for the time being). I think there are two options for where the chute is positioned relative to the genoa: in between the genoa sheets, or completely on one side (the same side as the halyard).

If the chute is positioned in between the genoa sheets the head would be ready at the foot of the mast, with the halyard running up behind the lazy jib sheet (a bit like the pole uphaul with a symmetric). For a bear-away-set it would be possible to hoist the snuffed chute before the mark, inside the genoa with the lazy genoa sheet running around the front of the sausage. We could then furl the genoa at the mark and open the chute. For a gybe-set we could just hoist the snuffed kite after the gybe. At the downwind mark we would unfurl the genoa outside the snuffed chute on either tack, but would have to release the halyard before tacking.

Alternatively if the chute is on one side then the head would be positioned at the base of the forestay, with the halyard running down beside the forestay. The snuffed chute could then be hoisted before the mark, either inside or outside the genoa depending on the tack. After rounding (and gybing if necessary) the chute would end up either inside or outside the genoa. If outside it could be opened immediately, otherwise I think it would be better to furl the genoa first. At the downwind mark it might be possible to unfurl the genoa before snuffing, so long as it is on the inside. The disadvantage that I see of this approach is that one of the chute's sheets will have to be over the genoa sheets (and aft of the genoa clew) when going upwind which is likely to be a pain.

Do either of these make sense, or am I overthinking this?

 

[flaming]

If your halyard and your tack are inside the genoa (ie your halyard is below the forestay and your tack is aft of the forestay) then I think your best bet is to rig your cruising chute as if it was a staysail - so completely inside the Genoa.

If you wanted to upgrade this setup, but didn't want to run your tack and halyard outside of the forestay, if you went for a top down furler on your chute you'd have a pretty slick setup where you would hoist the furled sail on the approach to the mark, then simultaneously furl genoa and unfurl chute. Reversing it at the leeward mark.

But it still won't get you dead downwind all that well....

 

[bbg]

For a normal setup agreed... But....

He's flying the thing inside the forestay... I can't see an easy way that you can set and douse a cruising chute inside the forestay with the genoa still up, as they want to occupy the same space. The only thing I can think of is to gybe set, hoisting inside the genoa before the gybe and furling as quickly as possible as you gybe, in effect a sort of gybe peel rather than a normal set and douse. But I think that's got snafu written all over it.

On that basis, if the legs are relatively short I'm fairly sure that polling out the genoa is going to fastest in all but the very lightest winds. If the leg is at least 2 miles, then you may get some benefit, especially if it's not DDW, but if DDW and at least about 10 knots TWS, then my considered advice would be to pole out your genoa and leave the kite in the bag.

Yes I missed that it is inside the forestay. Very difficult to get the tack to windward in those circumstances.

 

[TLouth7]

If your halyard and your tack are inside the genoa ..... I think your best bet is to rig your cruising chute as if it was a staysail - so completely inside the Genoa.

But it still won't get you dead downwind all that well....

This seemed like the better solution to me, not least because it has a pleasing symmetry. The most important thing is that I don't get to the downwind mark, snuff the chute and then discover that I can't unfurl the genoa because the sheets are in the wrong place.

I will try it this weekend and report back.

In terms of getting the tack to windward, the tack sits just in front of the forestay, but the line is secured just aft. What I have done when cruising is attach a makeshift guy to the tack in front of the forestay, rig a foreguy, and release the tackline snap-shackle. The chute can then be brought to windward around the outside of the forestay. The problem is that this all has to be reversed before any manoeuvre, so I think it might be impractical for racing.

Is there any benefit to having an adjustable tackline on a cruising chute? Presumably it could be eased to get the luff further round the forestay when sailing deep, but is the sail cut for this?

 

[flaming]

Is there any benefit to having an adjustable tackline on a cruising chute? Presumably it could be eased to get the luff further round the forestay when sailing deep, but is the sail cut for this?

Used to do this on my dad's old cruising boat that had a cruising chute. Works well. Initially we just used a fairly short line taken to the mooring cleat on the bow, but this meant that once eased you couldn't get it back on... So we then used to run a separate line up to a coachroof winch. That works very well in a cruising context.

Yes if you ease the tackline you can get a bit of rotation, not the same as on a J105 etc, but it can work.

 

[lw395]

In light airs, a cruising chute will work reasonably well because the apparent wind will come forwards.
As the wind increases, this happens a lot less, because the boat speed does not increase proportionally to the wind speed. Unless you have a surfing/planing sportsboat.
Do the vectors for 6, 12 and 18 knots of breeze.

Sailing on rivers and estuaries, you will very often want to sail parallel to the current, either to stay out of it or to get the most of it.
That often means parallel to the wind.
This is where it really pays to have a conventional kite with a pole.
Even in dinghies, those pesky Merlins will embarass 'faster' boats on succh waters.

So, frankly, I would suggest getting a proper kite. Or two.

If you are going to stick with a cruising chute, it might be worth considering a short bowsprit which can be angled to windward.
No idea what your yardstick system will make of that though!

Other issues, the sheave for the kite halyard below the forestay can probably be changed for a slot exit leading to a block on a crane at the masthead?


Of course in racing there are more important things than actual boat speed, it's more enjoyable to be racing against similar boats sailed in a similar way.

 

[TLouth7]

So, frankly, I would suggest getting a proper kite. Or two.

If you are going to stick with a cruising chute, it might be worth considering a short bowsprit which can be angled to windward.
No idea what your yardstick system will make of that though!

Other issues, the sheave for the kite halyard below the forestay can probably be changed for a slot exit leading to a block on a crane at the masthead?

I would prefer a proper kite, but there are a number of changes that would have to be made to the boat to accommodate one (including a halyard in front of the forestay). If I sort some more pressing issues I will then look at these, but for the time being there are definitely big gains to be made with the current setup.

The racing is under local handicap, with no spinnaker dimensions given. Thus I think that swinging a cruising chute tack up to windward would be acceptable if it could be set up nicely.

 

[TLouth7]

Thanks for your help everybody, we raced on Saturday with the cruising chute inside the genoa sheets, in fairly light winds. It worked really well, and it was very nice keeping everything rigged between legs. Three issues were:

- Impossible to un-snuff the kite until the genoa was furled. This was generally not a problem, except on some marginal beam reach legs.

- The genoa sheets were barely long enough for the lazy sheet to pass around the front of the snuffed chute. Made it difficult to get the chute fully hoisted before the windward mark.

- We were dropping the snuffed chute through the forehatch, leaving the tack attached to the bow, and the head at the mast. If the scheduled downpours had materialised this would have resulted in a seriously wet forecabin. Not an issue for you proper racers I know. Also I repeatedly forgot to sort out the lazy genoa sheet after a drop, resulting in it catching in the partly open forehatch on the subsequent tack.

All in all I think this is the best way to do it, at least until I can sort out a proper kite setup.