Racing rules- Sailing the course

[Doug_Stormforce]

So, it's day 2 of a 3 day regatta. 5 boats in a fleet, although one of them (Boat A) is nearly twice the size of the others and on a different leg when the incident below occurs.

Boats B, C, D and E are all on the same leg of the course in alphabetical order.

Boat B mis identifies the mark, rounds the wrong one and effectively sails the wrong course, Boats C, D and E follow. C and D both spot their mistake and head for the correct mark while hoisting red flags and hailing boat E (B is too far away). Boat E acknowledges the hail and the reason why but opts not to return to the correct mark.

4 boats end up in the protest room, it is clear B and E sailed the wrong course. The committee agrees they did and applies a time penalty of 2 minutes to the two boats that missed a mark out.

After the time penalty has been applied boat B has won the race despite having missed out one of the marks.

Ignoring the obvious conclusion (let's miss all the marks out take a few 2 minute penalties and win) has anyone ever come across this situation. I naively thought if you missed a mark out you retired or were DSQ.

 

[SAMYL]

Seems strange but then had thick brown envelopes changed hands?

I always thought that if you missed a mark then you "failed to complete the course" and a DSQ would follow regardless of time penelties etc., ( or else you retired ).

Could the boats that sailed the course not then protest the protest committee?

 

[Stork_III]

Seems wrong to me, DSQ would be normal, but what do the Sailing Instructions say regarding Penalties to be applied?

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Seems strange but then had thick brown envelopes changed hands?

I always thought that if you missed a mark then you "failed to complete the course" and a DSQ would follow regardless of time penelties etc., ( or else you retired ).

Could the boats that sailed the course not then protest the protest committee?

I think you are right,

Rule 64.1 When the protest committee decides that a boat that is a party the protest hearing has broken a rule and is not exonerated, it shall disqualify her unless some other penalty applies.

The operative word being SHALL.

In the OPs case it seems the Protest committee has given redress which is inappropriate, so boats C and D have to appeal to the RYA if they can be bothered.

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

The SIs make no reference to time penalties for boats failing to sail the course.I had a chat with the chair of the protest committee in the bar after the verdict. He told me he has discretion to apply whatever penalty he felt appropriate, he did not however explain why this penalty applied. Beyond that his argument seemed to centre around 3 statements, " I am very fair"' " I understand all of the angles" and "I sleep well at night with my decisions."In fact he repeated each of these statements multiple times in answer to pretty much very question I asked.He also commented that the 2 boats that sailed the wrong course had genuinely thought they were sailing the right course.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

He told me he has discretion to apply whatever penalty he felt appropriate, .

He's wrong
- unless the RO has revised the rule in the Sailing Instructions
- per 64.1, some other penalty applies, in which case he has to prove it

EDIT: Or he has given B & E redress because the race committee failed to display the course clearly, and they can prove this is why the missed out the mark.

If it is a serious race, boats C and D can appeal, and I believe the RYA would find in their favour.

PS I say all of this having spent two days last week in a classroom on Regional Race Management Seminar, to qualify as a Club RO +. But as the two instructors proved between them, who were both at International standard, there can still be arguments about the rules !!

 

[Leighb]

I have not raced for some years and maybe things have changed, but I have never heard anything so absurd. The RO was definitely out of order, in order to finish, you MUST sail the correct course, not some other course that you mistakenly thought was the one set!!

The converse also applies, if a Race Committee sets a bad course such that having passed mark A to port, and the next mark is B to starboard perhaps some distance away and then another mark C, which would have required Mark B to be circumnavigated, you will have sailed the proper course and left B to starboard if you then go straight from A to C. !!

This happened in a local Regatta some years ago, a tail ender in a fleet, being perhaps the only one who had read the course carefully, did just that and finished way ahead. The others all protested and he was DSQ, he then appealed to the RYA and won on appeal.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

. The RO was definitely out of order,

[pedant]It is the protest committee chairman who is out of order, not the RO[/pedant]

 

[Leighb]

[pedant]It is the protest committee chairman who is out of order, not the RO[/pedant]

I accept your kind correction, my fingers got ahead of my brain.

 

[Lucky Duck]

The converse also applies, if a Race Committee sets a bad course such that having passed mark A to port, and the next mark is B to starboard perhaps some distance away and then another mark C, which would have required Mark B to be circumnavigated, you will have sailed the proper course and left B to starboard if you then go straight from A to C. !!

This happened in a local Regatta some years ago, a tail ender in a fleet, being perhaps the only one who had read the course carefully, did just that and finished way ahead. The others all protested and he was DSQ, he then appealed to the RYA and won on appeal.

If I have read this correctly then I'm not sure how this meets the 'line of string test'?

 

[lw395]

I am a little surprised that a coach, a 'paid expert' is needing to ask the question.
Presumably it is very un-serious racing where worrying about the results is not really the point.
Perhaps the point is for the participants to enjoy themselves and consider taking it more seriously in future?

If you want to take it further, then you need to apply for redress.

You have to ask why the boats went to the wrong mark. If the SI's were vague, then the end result may be that the race ends up void.

 

[bbg]

I have never come across that situation. There is no room for discretion in the circumstances you require (leaving aside any ambiguity in the SIs).

Rule 28.2 is the "piece of string" rule. If a piece of string representing the boat's course pulled taut doesn't go round all the marks, there is a breach of this rule.

Rule 64.1 begins this way:

When the protest committee decides that a boat that is a party to a protest hearing has broken a rule and is not exonerated, it shall disqualify her unless some other penalty applies.

I don't see how breaking 28.2 could be exonerated, except by going back and completing the course correctly. Which the boat can't do once she crosses the finish line (even if having not completed the course properly).

Chairman of the protest committee is wrong.

And, by the way, I am not sure what the rules are about rounding the wrong mark and protests. Strictly speaking the rule is not broken until the boat finishes, not having completed the course. I have on more than one occasion watched a boat sail away to the wrong mark and said nothing. Although. come to think of it, on both occasions the mark was farther away and going round the farther mark would still have allowed them to complete the course without fault.

 

[awol]

Some years ago I got stuck in the mud of my berth at Port Edgar before a very windy Sunday race. Eventually got unstuck by unrolling and sheeting in the genoa and applying full welly to the 13 horses. Hammered out, hoisting main, cut the donk, did a 720 and crossed the line well after the horn. 'Cos it was blowing stink, as luck would have it, we got to the 2nd mark first and then we had a wee problem - none of us had any idea what the course number was. There were three possible courses with the same first two marks with the 3rd mark being a choice of 3 ranged up the south shore of the firth so we headed for the middle yin keeping a sharp eye on the other boats to see if any tacked for the first one. None did so we carried on and the whole fleet followed us. It was, of course, the wrong mark but it was a cracking sail and no-one cared.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

I am a little surprised that a coach, a 'paid expert' is needing to ask the question.

Maybe a bit harsh - a sailing instructor and a race coach two entirely different roles.

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

He's wrong
- unless the RO has revised the rule in the Sailing Instructions
- per 64.1, some other penalty applies, in which case he has to prove it

Thanks Nick, this is what I thought but had not wanted to lead the discussion by stating.

I have not raced for some years and maybe things have changed, but I have never heard anything so absurd.......... in order to finish, you MUST sail the correct course, not some other course that you mistakenly thought was the

Agreed

I am a little surprised that a coach, a 'paid expert' is needing to ask the question.
Presumably it is very un-serious racing where worrying about the results is not really the point.
Perhaps the point is for the participants to enjoy themselves and consider taking it more seriously in future?

If you want to take it further, then you need to apply for redress.

LW395, thanks for your interest, even us coaches like to discuss things with others and this forum is often a good place. I'm a yacht skipper, not a protest committee chairman, as such I recognise where others may have more expertise than myself in specific areas.

You have to ask why the boats went to the wrong mark. If the SI's were vague, then the end result may be that the race ends up void.

My own interpretation is the first boat got it wrong, the rest initially followed, two thirds of those who followed quickly realised the mistake and corrected. The boat who then suddenly found himself no longer in last place did not correct as it would have put him back in last place.

I have never come across that situation. There is no room for discretion in the circumstances you require (leaving aside any ambiguity in the SIs)...........
I don't see how breaking 28.2 could be exonerated, except by going back and completing the course correctly. Which the boat can't do once she crosses the finish line (even if having not completed the course properly).

Chairman of the protest committee is wrong.

agreed

 

[irl2605]

I would Appeal . You are totally correct . This Protest Committe has spoilt your days racing and will do it again if not corrected. Also you do not have to fly a flag and hail for sailing wrong course as they have not broken any rule at that stage, although you must inform them as soon as possible after finishing. Rule kinda says it would be nice of you to do so though, at the mark .
Rule 61.1 (a) .3 States. if the incident was an error by the other boat in sailing the course, she( You ) need not hail or display a red flag but she (You) shall inform the other boat before that boat finishes
or at the first reasonable opportunity after she finishes.
Iain ;

 

[Leighb]

Re informing a boat that you see is going for the wrong mark/wrong way round. Whilst I agree it would be kind to advise them if within hail, I don't believe anything in the rules requires you to do so at a time that would disadvantage you. I also don't believe you are in any way OBLIGATED to so advise.

Quite fair to let them know as they come away from the mark - wrong - as you approach. They will then have to re-round and will be behind you, however a passing thought, you may be disadvantaging other boats in the race who would also have benefited had the erroneous boat not been advised. Moral dilemma here?

Sailing the wrong course has to be one of the commoner ways of losing races, I have certainly seen several boats in a fleet follow sheep-like a leader who is wrong and others astern get it right.

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

I would Appeal . You are totally correct . This OOD has spoilt your days racing and will do it again if not corrected. Also you do not have to fly flag and hail for sailing wrong course as they have not broken any rule at that stage although you must inform them as soon as possible after finishing. Rule kinda says it would be nice of you to do so though, at the mark .
Rule 61.1 (a) .3 States. if the incident was an error by the other boat in sailing the course, she( You ) need not hail or display a red flag but she (You) shall inform the other boat before that boat finishes
or at the first reasonable opportunity after she finishes.
Iain ;

Irl, agreed but I took the decision on the water to be belt and braces so that waters could not be clouded later and to give boat E the chance to correct their mistake.


As it happens we are not sailing in the UK, (the ISAF Protest chairman and his wife laughed at me when I told them I was a Solent sailor). I have found the genuine locals have been great and their enthusiasm as hosts has been 100% but they have been let down by the "experts" they have brought in. I know what should have happened and I also know that mistakes happen on the water, we all make them. Had I missed out a mark of the course, I like to think that I would not have entered the protest room, I would have retired once it became obvious I had messed up.


Ive vey been told (and this is only hearsay) that the local boat that did not sail the course and ended up winning was carrying a VIP.


You are right, the protest committee have spoilt our day's racing and in fact spoilt the whole series. If we don't all sail by the rules and be held accountable to the rules then racing becomes pointless. We have however had a good time here off the water and will simply adjust next year's racing calendar accordingly.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

So pray tell, Doug, where are you then ?

 

[boguing]

I've got three related stories.

Cowes Week ('85 I think). SIs produced under a new 'computerised' system, gave the courses, numbered page by page. Each list of marks clearly notes as P or S, and either rounding or passing. Somewhere off Beaulieu and heading to windward to a mark at Lymington (after which across to Yarmouth and then back to finish) we realized that the Lym mark was listed as Stbd and passing. So we immediately cracked sheets and went straight for Yarmouth. Finished third, but were protested against. Went to the RO and he told me that it was obviously a mistake and that we should have rounded to Port. So I retired.

Next day same sort of course, but on the way back from the West Solent we had to carry on down to Peel Bank somewhere before coming back up to finish at Cowes. Having rounded the windward mark it was now a run all the way to Peel. Except that there was a mark enroute listed as Stbd and rounding. So we got ready, dropped the spinnaker, rounded and re-hoisted. Nobody else did. So this time I protested the whole fleet. RO told me that 'we couldn't have that sort of behaviour'.

Really put me off Cowes Week really. Very bad taste in my mouth.

Last one was better. I was the 'scratch' boat and led four others around the wrong mark. Didn't realise till we were in the bar, and when told I immediately retired. Not so the others who tried to maintain that it was my fault and that they needn't retire. What satisfaction do these people get?

Actually, I realise that I have other rule adherence stories, and I'm getting angry. Better stop now.