Racing/collision rules ?

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ozzyb

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I'll ask the question before adding more detail if necessary.

I did the RTI for first time on Saturday great experience not quite the best result.

Similar Boats A & B both on stbd running down island side to Needles, gusty conditions A pointing higher, B windward boat deeper angle better speed approaching from rear to overtake.

Should A have given way as soon as B had overlap
Should B have passed behind A
How close is acceptable in racing at 7+ kts
 
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I'll ask the question before adding more detail if necessary.

I did the RTI for first time on Saturday great experience not quite the best result.

Similar Boats A & B both on stbd running down island side to Needles, gusty conditions A pointing higher, B windward boat deeper angle better speed approaching from rear to overtake.

Should A have given way as soon as B had overlap
Should B have passed behind A
How close is acceptable in racing at 7+ kts

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B has to keep clear of A and not impede A in any way.

No, just keep clear

0.1 mm as long as they don't actually touch.
 
B should have given way - being windward boat once the overlap is established.
As to how close - in sub 40' boats at 7+ knots - 2-3 boat lengths before the "rule" would be shouted... but if I was in B I'd be anticipating the close quarters and sorting it out so I wasn't put out long before then!
 
As overtaking boat 'B' must keep clear of 'A' .. 'A' Must not alter course ..
As regards distance .. As long as there is no contact .. So couple of inches depends on how brave the crews are ..

Raced in Ireland ..

Up and down the line waiting for the start .. Must admit I had my eyes closed some of the time .. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif .. It was just to frightening to look .. and I was on the helm ..
 
A can sail his proper course and B must keep clear.
How close is acceptable depends more on the seastate than speed, but the windward boat should allow for the natural rolling and swerving in response to waves. A miss is as good as a mile though!
The boat coming from clear astern has to decide whether to pass to leeward or keep clear on the windward side.
The Bryan Willis rules book is good imho. do go for the 2009 version, you see people trying to sell out of date ones on ebay for proper money!
 
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As overtaking boat 'B' must keep clear of 'A' .. 'A' Must not alter course ..



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A has luffing rights and may luff as high as he pleases, subject to rule 16.1 'when a right-of-way boat changes course she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.'

So overtaking to windward requires a little care!
 
I've been dragging myself over the coals with this.

I was Boat A hard on the wind gusty conditions with boat rounding a bit in gusts, aiming to get out from shore to clear the wreck off the needles. I spotted Boat B being deeper and slightly quicker approaching from behind he came alongside to windward just as we rounded slightly, I was defensively shouting to crew to ease main to be able to bear away. Unfortunately he clattered into us tacking as he did so, bending stanchions and putting a scar down our sides with his stern.

Racing incident or Insurance claim?

Should I have protested over him?
 
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Racing incident or Insurance claim?

Should I have protested over him?

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Claim off him/his insurance.
Ideally yes, you should protest, however it depends if there is a gentlemanly apology or not - if so, then it's no great biggy - he should go off and do turns - if not then that really gets my goat - and I'd generally protest...
 
My understanding:

"Should A have given way as soon as B had overlap"
> If B establishes the overlap to windward they still have to keep clear (just under a different rule) so A continues to have right of way.

"Should B have passed behind A"
> B can pass either side, if they pass to leeward A has to keep clear once the overlap is established but B cannot sail above their proper course. If B establishes overlap to windward A has right of way and is free to luff above proper course (though they have to give B room to keep clear).

"How close is acceptable in racing at 7+ kts"
> This to me is a grey area in the rules, there is an appeals case that says something along the lines of keeping clear requires more than avoiding contact, otherwise the rules would say avoid contact. So 0.1mm is definitely not keeping clear. I agree that how much distance depends on conditions especially waves. In light airs and flat water maybe a few metres is still keeping clear. Doing 7 knots down the back of the Island on Saturday anything closer than half a boatlength to me would not be keeping clear. In big wind & waves a boatlength could easily be too close. If you are give way boat and get too close you leave yourself very open to being penalised as the other boat can just alter course and protest if they think their was a risk of collision.

Chris
 
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I've been dragging myself over the coals with this.

I was Boat A hard on the wind gusty conditions with boat rounding a bit in gusts, aiming to get out from shore to clear the wreck off the needles. I spotted Boat B being deeper and slightly quicker approaching from behind he came alongside to windward just as we rounded slightly, I was defensively shouting to crew to ease main to be able to bear away. Unfortunately he clattered into us tacking as he did so, bending stanchions and putting a scar down our sides with his stern.

Racing incident or Insurance claim?

Should I have protested over him?

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BOTH!!!!

Contact is ALWAYS a protest. Without the findings of a protest committee in your favour, you are unlikely to preserve your no claims or your excess after a racing collision.

Sounds very much like he was at fault, as he was clear astern, then gained an overlap to windward just beofre the collision.

A few questions I would want to know if I was the protest committee.

How long had he been overlapped before the collision occured?

How much separation was there when the overlap was aquired?

Was this the first incidence of you losing control, or had you been obviously struggling previously?

When you moved towards him (rounded up) how quickly did you close the gap?

Did he try and tack before or after the first collision?

Between what parts of the boat was the first collision?

Was their any communication between the boats before or after the incident?
 
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0.1 mm as long as they don't actually touch.

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Absolutely INcorrect.

"Keep Clear" is a definition in the rules.

It would definitely apply in this situation, as it always does unless superceded by "Room" or "Mark room".

The definition of "Keep Clear" is

"One boat Keeps Clear of another if the other can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and, when the boats are overlapped on the same tack, if the leward boat can change course in both directions without immediately making contact with the windward boat."

0.1mm would definitely not satisfy that definition.
 
"A few questions I would want to know if I was the protest committee.

How long had he been overlapped before the collision occured?

How much separation was there when the overlap was aquired?

Was this the first incidence of you losing control, or had you been obviously struggling previously?

When you moved towards him (rounded up) how quickly did you close the gap?

Did he try and tack before or after the first collision?

Between what parts of the boat was the first collision?

Was their any communication between the boats before or after the incident?"


Thanks for all your replies.

The other boat overlapped me for about 30 secs. before incident and within 3 metres. He had plenty of space to his stbd.

I had been tending to round up in gusts for about 3 mins before and was concerned about him trying to get inside us when spotted approaching from rear.

We closed pretty quickly too quick!!

He didn't try to tack until on us when collision brought him through the wind.

He hit us amidship, we were shouting, he was shouting. he had at least six crew, 2 on lee rail who didn't seem to tell helmsman where we were (behind his sails) or was he just trying to bully us out.

Unfortunately my 2 crew on Saturday were inexperienced with one first timer.
 
As he gained an overlap to windward from astern, you can do what you like, up to head to wind if you want, so as far as I see it, your rounding up is irrelevant. Edit - not irrelevant - just less relevant - you are required to give him room to get out of the way, but he shouldn't have been in the way in the first place as he was required to keep clear.

You should claim from him, you had all the rights on your side.
 
3meters to windward of a boat that can be seen to have trouble and is rounding up? Not enough IMHO - and then a tack is not necessarily the right move - he could've just luffed
 
Because you'd been overlapped for a while, and neither boat was attempting to manoeuver, I think this would hinge on the definition of "keep clear" and rule 16.1

Which states

"When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear"

In other words, did your broaching demonstrate that he was not keeping clear, as the collision was "immediate", or was he keeping clear, but you changed course so suddenly that you did not satisfy rule 16.1.

As you were leward boat, and hence ROW boat, the protest committee would take the view that the onus is on him to prove that you gave him no chance to keep clear. And I think he'd have a good chance of doing so.
3m is about 1 boat width, which I would probably regard as keeping clear in those conditions, but you said "within 3m".
How far within? 2.9m? 1.5m?

Without actually having a propper hearing I don't suppose you'd get an actual answer here, but hopefully you're able to answer it from your own perspective.

Oh, and going close to windward of an obviously struggling boat....? Rookie error.
 
Unfair though it might seem, The Racing Rules would penalise both of you, even as the right-of-way boat ...

"14 AVOIDING CONTACT
A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-room
(a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and
(b) shall not be penalized under this rule unless there is contact that causes damage or injury."
 
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Unfair though it might seem, The Racing Rules would penalise both of you, even as the right-of-way boat ...

"14 AVOIDING CONTACT
A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-room
(a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and
(b) shall not be penalized under this rule unless there is contact that causes damage or injury."

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You're slightly misreading that rule.

The key phrase is "if reasonably possible". This rule is intended to penalise the skipper who forces a collision when it was avoidable. I certainly don't think that was the situation here. The basic meaning behind that rule is "you don't have to hit someone to prove that they fouled you". Which is very sensible.

If you were correct then I would have been disqualified in a recent protest as we suffered damage that ended our regatta in a collision that the protest committee agreed was caused by another boat.
In fact we were awarded average points for that race and the remaining race as well.
 
Sorry to hear you had damage.
Bloody good job you didn't have crew with legs over the side.
I had assumed you were going down wind from the word running in your first post. That does not change very much.
The fact that his stern hit you suggests that he had got in a position where steering to avoid you would move his stern towards you. This limits the amount you can head up with him being able to keep clear. He probably broke the rules in getting to that situation, if this went to protest I would not be surprised if you were both penalised. You should have either protested, taken a penalty or retired.
It's also possible that the whole thing looked different from his perspective, he may have been constrained by another boat or something.
I hope the boat gets fixed properly without too much hassle, and that your crew are not put off.
 
Definitely overlapped within 3m, No way would you get a boat between us.

I did not intentionally change course and was trying to bear away when I realised he was running down on us. I remember the first point of contact before hull was his shrouds hitting ours, he being an older style with a bit more lean on. Does not allowing for mast lean count regarding keeping clear?

I was within 3m of boats at the start in light conditions which was not a problem. In the gusty conditions we were in I would have given much more room myself.
 
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Does not allowing for mast lean count regarding keeping clear?

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It's the whole boat - including rig that must keep clear ...
 
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