Quote for survey for 20 yr old boat for insurance.

[Portofino]

If the surveyor has all the proper qualifications I can't see a problem, in fact I'd welcome a skilled eye and an honest opinion.

That’s primarily what I thought, saw the + ve side .

Mots on cars when introduced cut RTA s particularly deaths .It’s a regime of sorts
Aircraft , your squeezyjet flight has been vigorously certified as well , there’s a regime.Even your X channel ferries inc P+O are scrutinised .

Strange how folks are quick to advise to pull the trigger on a survey when purchasing driven by reducing the asking £££ , or at least trying to chip the survey fee .Can understand green horn newbes wanting a “ skilled eye and an honest opinion “ like you say .
But experienced formuites ?? .

I drew up my own maintenance regime like most on here .Not wanting to drag the new vs second hand argument in , but used boats around 15 M are , or were in 2015 a fraction of new , I mean a tiny fraction .Mentally this give used buyers potentially a huge headroom to fund a maintenance program of replace and repair and never see any depreciation if you choose carefully.

As you say a periodic professional survey ( stipulation is a proper qualifications btw ) is rather comforting to have imho .

Opens up the whole market next time when insurance shopping I can choose on policy wording as well as price from a wider number .
In this case there was one specific clause / wording re unattended @ anchor ( been done to death on many other threads ) that put craftsure on a pedestal.I wanted no ambiguity on that, absolute clarity the thing in black n white .
So a win win .
As said it doubles up as a valuation as well , a credible valuation a figure on a letterhead paper from a pro.

Not sure what the diesel bill will be this season with 2400L of tankage and plans , the in’s survey fee pales into insignificance in my man baths .
Guess it’s easy for shaft drive owners are we are free from the horrors + roulette of age outdrive ownership maintenance costs so planned boat expenditure is just that ……in fact well planned known knowns .

Guess like a new member on hear who’s just dropped a unexpected £5 K on a new set on SS D 6 props with his Priny etc …..every straw saving counts - something like that .Can see why some will push back on this minor expense.I get it guys .

 

[julians]

I’ll of course wait for the survey results (end of the month) but I‘m expecting to change insurers to give me some implication time.

I wouldnt even entertain having the survey - for all the reasons pete mentions in post #18 and more. I guess you could have it done for peace of mind, and choose whether to implement some/all of the recommendations, but I certainly wouldnt be entertaining implementing ALL the recommendations blindly just because the insurance says I must.

I'd be finding a new insurer , if it means terminating the insurance mid way through the term, and starting again , then so be it.

 

[petem]

I wouldnt even entertain having the survey - for all the reasons pete mentions in post #18 and more.

I'd be finding a new insurer , if it means terminating the insurance mid way through the term, and starting again , then so be it.

It's all about unintended consequences of having the survey.

If anyone wants a survey for piece of mind / comfort blanket, then by all means commission one independently of insurance then you can decide what to do with the results (and not be forced to rectify ALL findings).

 

[Portofino]

I wouldnt even entertain having the survey - for all the reasons pete mentions in post #18 and more.

I'd be finding a new insurer , if it means terminating the insurance mid way through the term, and starting again , then so be it.

What s with the uncharacteristic from you race to the bottom attitude Julians ?

Btw ins survey + craftsure policy = less £ /€ than others anyhow .
So arguably it’s worked out cheaper for me any how I have inadvertently ended up at the bottom if price was ( it wasn’t) the motivation.

 

[julians]

What s with the uncharacteristic from you race to the bottom attitude Julians ?

Btw ins survey + craftsure policy = less £ /€ than others anyhow .
So arguably it’s worked out cheaper for me any how I have inadvertently ended up at the bottom if price was ( it wasn’t) the motivation.

dont think its a race to the bottom, but I wouldnt be entering into an agreement to rectify some open ended list of defects that a surveyor finds , and i guess david j isnt doing this, he can always terminate the insurance if they insist that you must rectify a problem with the gel coat being faded, or some other triviality. I guess my issue is with the slack wording on the insurance that davidj must ... “……..with all recommendations complied with” - theres no qualifier, so if the surveyor says the gel coat is badly faded and recommends it should be polished, but you choose to not get it polished, can they refuse a claim at a later date? I guess you'd clarify all this and if you cant reach a reasonable agreement you'd terminate the insurance, but why even bother playing games with them (the insurance co)?

I modified my post to say i think its fine to get a survey separately from the insurance in order to understand any significant defects that I wasnt aware of , a bit like an MOT . I'm pretty comfortable in knowing what to look for on the sort of boats I would own, so I personally wouldnt botther having a "peace of mind" survey, but each to their own on that one.

 

[petem]

What s with the uncharacteristic from you race to the bottom attitude Julians ?

Btw ins survey + craftsure policy = less £ /€ than others anyhow .
So arguably it’s worked out cheaper for me any how I have inadvertently ended up at the bottom if price was ( it wasn’t) the motivation.

It's spelt 'craftinsure', with an 'i'!

For the avoidance of doubt, have you had a survey, fixed ALL issues identified and now moved to Craftinsure?

Do you have a copy of the Craftinsure policy wording?

 

[Portofino]

It's spelt 'craftinsure', with an 'i'!

For the avoidance of doubt, have you had a survey, fixed ALL issues identified and now moved to Craftinsure?

Do you have a copy of the Craftinsure policy wording?

Yes it’s turned 20 .
Yes nothing was needed .

He only advised out of the insurance survey a tiny thing specific to cruising Italian waters .Apparently officialdom requires a compass card .On the day I could not find it .I have seen one somewhere.
But then when I was in Fr I carried a signalling mirror and dedicated bailing bucket .The fact we are U.K. reg and fly a red and this kinds stuff is arguably by some ( not me btw ) N/A is a grey area and for the sake of a few £/€ and wanting an easy hassle free life with the locals I,am gonna get a updated card .
Yes I know everyone has GPS , and other devices to nav so do officialdom .

Btw digging it all out premium ( with the survey ) was £634 , not previously quoted £800 FWIW with speed up to 40 knots .

But it’s opened the gate to clause marked in blue , which I value due to my type of usage in the Med .Others might not .


Red bit is the part Petes requested.
Note it’s 7 yr cycle once in with them .

 

[Momac]

So
For a 20+ year old boat
If you don't have a survey report from a qualified surveyor or have not complied with all of the recommendations in the report the insurance is invalidated .

 

[Nauti Fox]

I had to have one on our 1991 boat last year, that's with GJW.

 

[petem]

So
For a 20+ year old boat
If you don't have a survey report from a qualified surveyor or have not complied with all of the recommendations in the report the insurance is invalidated .

Yep.

 

[SimonA]

Insurance surveys are a pain for people like me with a 40 year old inland waterways boat which isn't worth tens of thousands, the survey is bound to show issues which then need fixing to please the insurance company. This is the first year I've not been able to obtain insurance from any company as I don't have a survey, I've insured third party only as that's all I could get.

 

[colhel]

I'm only guessing as I've not had or heard any feedback wrt an insurance survey. But as the surveyor is only checking (I presume) safety critical items, I can't see any problem being an expensive fix unless something major was found.
Be good to hear some feedback from someone who's had one, as I'm sure a few of us will need to go through this process in the near future.

 

[DavidJ]

I'm only guessing as I've not had or heard any feedback wrt an insurance survey. But as the surveyor is only checking (I presume) safety critical items, I can't see any problem being an expensive fix unless something major was found.
Be good to hear some feedback from someone who's had one, as I'm sure a few of us will need to go through this process in the near future.

Mine is being done in a couple of weeks so I will feed back. I have no idea what level of detail the surveyor goes into just that it costs €350

 

[Croftie]

I'm only guessing as I've not had or heard any feedback wrt an insurance survey. But as the surveyor is only checking (I presume) safety critical items, I can't see any problem being an expensive fix unless something major was found.
Be good to hear some feedback from someone who's had one, as I'm sure a few of us will need to go through this process in the near future.

Ok, I had one at a similar time to Porto's. 30 year old, 13m. Below is typical of the report, have not put the complete report as some sections are more on the "valuation aspect" rather than the "Sea worthiness". As you will see the boat is in reasonable condition for age (better than when I bought it 2 years ago). Cost - I consider mine was expensive but over 5 years not a lot in comparison to other costs of ownership. Nothing in the report needs immediate attention or anything that an ins co could quibble about over a major claim. I would guess most owners on here would get a similar report with nothing requireing immediate attention. Yes it costs money but as Porto says it limits the ins Co's wriggle room.

Hull External:
There are some minor defects in the gel coat below the water line.
The bow thruster tunnel appears good.
Anti-fouling is in reasonable condition for fresh water.
Recommendations: Consider repairing the minor defects

Hull Internal:
The interior of the superstructure is lined. Where the hull could be seen through
lockers it appears to be satisfactory.
Bonding of the bow thruster tunnel appears satisfactory.
Recommendations: Monitor for water leaks from skin fittings, refitting and sealing
where necessary.

Keel
The keel is GRP; this is in satisfactory order.
There is no evidence of major grounding.
Recommendations: None.

Deck
Topsides are in a reasonable condition with minor gel-coat damage cracking
consistent with age.
The decks are dirty.
Recommendations: Clean the decks
(Note, had been on the hard over winter - needed a clean....)

Deck Joint
The deck joint is covered by a plastic and aluminium rubbing strake; this has minor
collision damage and abrasions on it.
Where the joint could be seen this is in good condition.
Recommendations: None

Deck Fittings
The pulpit is made of stainless steel; this is firm and in good condition.
Two cleats are located on the foredeck with two cleats amidships and two on the
stern, all of these cleats appear firm and secure.
A GRP tilting radar arch, on the fly bridge, is firm and secure; a ‘Lawrence Radom’
and navigation lights are attached to this.
Recommendations: None.

Hatches and Ports
The main hatch is an aluminium and glass patio style door; the lock is working.
Two GRP hatches give access to the crew cabin; these are good.
A ‘Houdini’ style hatch, in the fore cabin, appears in reasonable condition and does
not appear to be leaking.
The port-holes are all in good condition and do not appear to be leaking.
Recommendations: Be alert for water ingress and repair where necessary

Winches and Deck Gear
A ‘Lofrans’ anchor winch is fitted on the deck; this is working.
Recommendations: None

Steering Gear
Steering is via hydraulic wheels in the saloon and the fly bridge.
The rams on the rudders are firm and secure.
Balanced spade rudders, stokes and glands are serviceable; the glands appear good.
Steering all appears in satisfactory condition with a little play in the system.
Recommendations: None

Engines
Twin ‘Sabre’ six-cylinder turbo charged diesel engines are fitted.
S/Ns - not seen
Both Engines:
Engine Hrs: Port - 1131, Starboard - 1155
The engines are relatively clean.
Engine oil appears clean with no major oil leaks.
Engine mounts appear serviceable.
The belts and hoses also appear serviceable.
Turbo chargers appear satisfactory.
A ‘Fischer Panda’ diesel 8Kva generator is fitted in the engine bay; hrs - 864; this is
well secured with the exhaust and cooling systems appearing good.
Recommendations: Get trained service personnel to service the engines and generator
as per the manual.

Stern Gear and Propeller
‘Twin disc’ gearboxes appear in satisfactory condition; the oil appears serviceable.
Twin four blade 24-inch propellers are fitted; these appear in good condition and are
secured by two nuts.
Cutlass bearings are in serviceable condition and the ‘P’ brackets are firm and secure.
The stuffing box type stern glands appear satisfactory.
Shaft couplings also appear in a satisfactory condition.
The bow and stern thruster appear good.
Recommendations: Check the stern glands and cutlass bearings periodically

Fuel Systems
Diesel fuel tanks are under the saloon sole in front of the engines; these are well
strapped down.
The fuel fillers are satisfactory.
Fuel shut off valves are under the saloon sole; these are good although difficult to
reach.
The fuel filters are good.
Recommendations: None

Skin fittings (Sea-cocks and Valves)
Inlet and discharge sea-cocks and skin fittings for an electric heads and the port heads
appear good with two jubilee clips on the hoses.
‘Blakes’ type inlet and ‘gate’ type discharge sea-cocks and skin fittings for the aft
heads have been capped. The hoses have been capped.
A discharge valve for the holding tank appears good.
‘Ball’ type seawater cooling sea-cocks and skin fittings for the engines are all
satisfactory with two jubilee clips
‘Ball’ type seawater cooling sea-cocks and skin fittings for the generator are under the
leisure batteries and difficult to reach.
The above the water line skin fittings for the basin sink and bilge pumps are also
satisfactory.
The valves were tap tested and appear sound.
Recommendations: Carry soft wood bungs.

Bilges and Bilge Pumps
An electric bilge pump and float switch, in the engine bay, appear good.
One manual bilge pump is in the saloon; the valves on the manifold are good.
The bilges are dry in the forward cabin and damp in the engine bay.
Recommendations: Monitor the bilges for water and dry.

Cathodic Protection
The anodes on the hull are 20% wasted with the stern gear bonded to them.
Recommendations: Replace the anodes when needed

Electrical Installations
Four leisure and two engine batteries are fitted in the engine bay; these are firm and
secure.
A generator starter battery is next to the engine starting batteries.
Batteries for the bow thruster and stern thrusters are good with isolators.
Battery isolator switches are at the helm under the floor.
The main switch panel is in the salon next to the helm.
The boat is wired for 240v shore power.
240v breakers are located on the main switch panel in the lazarette.
An RCD is located in the system.
The shore power connection is on the port side of the cockpit and in good condition.
Galley, cockpit, fore cabin and aft cabin lights are all working.
The wiring in places is a little untidy.
Recommendations: Get the wiring checked by a qualified electrician

Instruments and Navigation Equipment
Equipment listed below was inspected visually and powered on.
Saloon
(Long list)
Fly Bridge
Instrumentation (Analogue):
Tachometer x 2
Oil pressure x 2
Garmin HDS7M
Compasses
Horn - working
Navigation Lights - working
The morse controls appear good.
Recommendations: Carry the appropriate navigation equipment for the grounds you
are cruising.

Accommodation
The accommodation comprises of a main open plan saloon galley area, forward cabin,
and twin heads.
A crew’s cabin is accessible from the cockpit.
Woodwork and upholstery are in reasonable condition for a boat of this age
In the fore cabin is a double bed; under the bed are the bow thruster and macerator
pump.
Bonding of the bulkheads, where it could be seen, is satisfactory.
The bilges are dry.
A ‘Webasto’ heater is working the pipework and exhaust seen appear good.
Recommendations: Monitor for any leaks in fittings and repair when found

Safety Equipment
6 Man Life Raft
4x Powder Fire Extinguisher
Navigation Lights - working
Anchor Light
Horn - working
Recommendations: Carry enough relevant safety equipment for all the crew on board
and the proposed use of the vessel. Check recommendations in the RYA Boat Safety
Handbook. ISBN: 9781905104383.

Anchors and Chain
A ‘Bruce’ type anchor and a length of chain are in the chain locker.
A ‘Lofrans’ anchor winch is fitted; this is working.
Recommendations: Carry appropriate chain and warp for the area cruising

Valuation
A fair valuation would be in the region of £xx,xxx given a willing buyer and seller.

Summary
The boat is in a fair condition for her age.
If the recommendations and a programme of regular maintenance are carried out the
boat will continue to provide her owners with many years service.

 

[petem]

Thanks for posting this, obviously a well cared for boat.

I'm really surprised (disappointed) that they didn't check and note the dates that the fire extinguishers and liferaft were serviced.

Also, do you not have flares on board (perfectly understandable if you don't)?

Any gas?

 

[Croftie]

Thanks for posting this, obviously a well cared for boat.

I'm really surprised (disappointed) that they didn't check and note the dates that the fire extinguishers and liferaft were serviced.

Also, do you not have flares on board (perfectly understandable if you don't)?

Any gas?

Fire Ex gauges all in the green (2 of 4 were new last year)

Life raft is actually slightly out of date but as I am river based I guess he was less concerned than if I was coastal so was being a little "generous" in the report by just saying there was one there (verbally said to me about date). As I am river based and no real need or requirement I probably will remove anyway. Just taking up space.

Again as inland use no flares and no gas on board.

 

[Portofino]

Mine was 40 pages check boxes + pictures to illustrate.
A traffic light system .Just the compass card with as I explained earlier is a local issue to boats used in Italian waters well Liguria officialdom at least .
They not out to nick pic it’s just a report for the underwriters to get a handle on what they are covering and if possible by acting on what’s dredged up decrease risk for everyone on the book . Or better decline or better still scare them off to a competitors book .
I mean every month there’s a whinge thread on here about there boat insurance % increases .
How about this “ They have written to me to ask for a 100 % increase this year citing hundreds of older badly maintained boats they wrote policy for have had huge payouts due to sinking “ and then said “ it’s an increasing problem “

I really don’t get the negativity / hate thrown about on this forum ( it’s on all the recent craftinsure threads ) regards an insurance survey .Pretty surprised tbh .
Any how here’s a few pages of mine in a attempt to tell and show and ease the hate fear .

Translated from Italian to Eng so be gentle with it .





I ve put the fire thingy last for the benefit of Pete ad he’s asking.As you can see the surveyor isn’t interested in “ dates “ just whether they are functional.
In the event of a fire claim no matter which underwriters they ALL if the vessel is say over 5 ( assuming 5 yrs is the sell by date ) will ask for invoices of the replacements .
Its not the surveyors job to push the underwriters on how to do a loss adjustment and assess a claim , in this case fire .
To ease curiosity the ER gas is 2 y old out of a 5 y shelf life the invoice is filled at home , I am all cocked and loaded in the event of a ER fire claim the underwriters doing there job .They will ask “ how olds the extinguishers “ looking for refute ammo you can bet your bottom $ on that .

Hope all this eases folks worries .

Remember I have the valuation as well which for me is 40;% above the BoS .The insurance valuation by a surveyor is currency underwriters accept .The brokers on several occasions, various have all sang the same tune on this one .
With todays upward market thats important .Without one you are stuck with your BoS .Yes you can bomb the broker who presumably will pass on the underwriters your fruits of Mr Google adds for the identical boat , but surly far better to do a one stop shop email of the recent valuation/ survey they requested which marries up with the insured value .

 

[Croftie]

Like Porto mine had various pictures and was 16 pages.

 

[petem]

@porto, it's not a question of 'hate', it's a question of going into things with eyes open and being aware of unintended consequences. And you might not like this but a lot of what you write is nonsense (and that's not just my view, a lot of people much cleverer than I have confirmed it)!

Anyhow, there's nothing wrong with kicking the tyres of any insurance requirement, cover or exclusion.

My objective for insurance is to have a policy that's as comprehensive as possible without spending money unnecessarily to met that objective.

But it really does amaze me how some people seem to be willing reject policies with imaginary deficiencies in favour of ones with actual deficiencies! Each to their own I guess.

 

[Portofino]

@porto, it's not a question of 'hate', it's a question of going into things with eyes open and being aware of unintended consequences. And you might not like this but a lot of what you write is nonsense (and that's not just my view, a lot of people much cleverer than I have confirmed it)!

Anyhow, there's nothing wrong with kicking the tyres of any insurance requirement, cover or exclusion.

My objective for insurance is to have a policy that's as comprehensive as possible without spending money unnecessarily to met that objective.

But it really does amaze me how some people seem to be willing reject policies with imaginary deficiencies in favour of ones with actual deficiencies! Each to their own I guess.

But it’s not like for like £ wise PeteM .
For me £632 vs £1500 r £ 2200 .
So the savings or your “ spending money unnecessarily…” Rings hollow .
Escalate that up 7 yrs the survey is valid and who’s quids in ?

Granted if you think your seacocks are the fizzing variety , or you are still on OEM s with a 15 y + boat then craftin sure is not for you .
As far as the unattended @ anchor ask the underwriters for clarity .Don’t assume it drops into all risks with words like recklessness and good seamanship scatter gunned throughout the policy wording .

Set your underwriters likely scenarios that apply to your use age , rather than shoot the messenger ( me ) .Then buy a policy .