Questions to be asked again

Re: We know nothing...

Designers design what boatbuilders want who are driven by what the public demand at boatshows. It doesn't necessarily mean an improvement!

Of course I don't believe that the Sadler 32 was a step in the right direction from the CO32 at all - a fatter boat with more IOR distortions but the extra space is just wasted inside - the accommodation is no better, a weaker rig etc. - not that the Sadler 32 is a bad boat, just not as good as her predecessor - but my point of view on that won't surprise you!
 
Re: We know nothing...

Of course, the perceived wisdom is that it's the "area below the graph" that's important than actual AVS, but AVS is a useful easy figure to pick out as a rough indication without having to draw the graph.

Nowadays designers cheat with AVS anyway by designing big coachroofs to create a high theoretical AVS (because of buoyancy in an inverted coachroof trying to right the boat). Which is a cheat because it creates potentially dangerous windage - and you lose the effect when the coachroof fills with water anyway.

After all a beach ball with a lump of blu-tack stuck on one side of it has an AVS of 180 degrees!
 
Re: We know nothing...

Does anyone actually have any accurate and indisputable data on keel failures across different models of boat. Are there for instance any MAIB findings to suggest problems with particular boats or paticular keel/hull designs.

I feel it would be of great value to the discussion if anyone could point us all in the right direction.
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

IIRC, Tony Bullimore's boat 'Exide Challenger' lost her all-carbon keel south of Australia, and that remained inverted for a long time, until the RAN with their cameras could get there /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

There were mutterings around the small community that built that boat - and other Bullimore boats - that she had been run aground in the weeks before the start of that race. The keel was inspected - externally, of course - but there was no way to determine if there was any significant internal damage.

Again IIRC, that keel was 'hollow-build' ( correct me if not so ) and several of TB's contemporary fellow-competitors mentioned they were pleased they had opted for solid carbon keels.

We really ought to learn more from these incidents, to prevent avoidable re-runs. It wouldn't happen twice in aviation - it shouldn't happen twice in boating.


/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

There may be mutterings in all these cases that the boats had run aground beforehand - that was what Bavaria claimed too, but IMHO that is part of the normal give and take of yachting, and shouldn't be an excuse for the builders/designers.

Maybe there needs to be some amendment to various racing rules to the effect that keels should be designed to survive an impact with a steel container or rock at say 2x the maximum speed which that yacht is able to reach under sail. That would change the shape and design of keels a bit!
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

I don't think you will survive the impact at 12 knots, unless your contessa has airbags fitted to the cockpit. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

Well I survived falling of my bike at about 12 knots! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

Reading this thread anyone would think that keels falling off was a regular occurrence, its not. Boats with bolt on keels have covered millions of accumulated miles.

The most dangerous part of sailing is still the drive down to the marina, even if it is a Contessa 32 you are going to.
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

No one is saying that yachts with bolt one keels as a whole are dangerous or that keels shouldn't be bolted on. But there appears to be a recurring symptom that is worth looking into because it has killed quite a few people in recent months. And so far as I can make out at the moment, there seems to be little consistency in what standards are applied in terms of strength and design.
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

Rarely, have I seen so much assumption and guesswork written about an event, a tragic one at that.

It seems to me that before any conclusions can be made, as others have said, we need to know more about the circumstances of the loss. I imagine that more details will come out over the next few days well before the official investigation.
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

What guesses and assumptions have been made about Hooligan, if that's what you're referring to?
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

some of the Co 32s wernt built as well as their reputation would have you belive /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif.
stringers omitted from behind the loo
chain plates
badly bonded loo sole
ditto main bulkheads
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe there needs to be some amendment to various racing rules to the effect that keels should be designed to survive an impact with a steel container or rock at say 2x the maximum speed which that yacht is able to reach under sail. That would change the shape and design of keels a bit!

[/ QUOTE ]
The VOR70 designers would love that. I doubt even your internal keel would survive hitting a container at 60+ knots.
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

[ QUOTE ]
Rarely, have I seen so much assumption and guesswork written about an event, a tragic one at that.

It seems to me that before any conclusions can be made, as others have said, we need to know more about the circumstances of the loss. I imagine that more details will come out over the next few days well before the official investigation.

[/ QUOTE ]Sorry, I thought it was a free world and we could ask whatever questions, and discuss whatever we liked - with all due respect to friends and family of any individuals involved.
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

[ QUOTE ]

We really ought to learn more from these incidents, to prevent avoidable re-runs. It wouldn't happen twice in aviation - it shouldn't happen twice in boating.

/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
It depends really. If an aeroplane breaks up in flight then that type will be grounded untill the problem is fixed. That doesn't stop another type of aeroplane suffering from stress fatigue and falling apart in the air though.

I think it's fair to assume that more planes fall out the sky than keels fall of boats.
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe there needs to be some amendment to various racing rules to the effect that keels should be designed to survive an impact with a steel container or rock at say 2x the maximum speed which that yacht is able to reach under sail. That would change the shape and design of keels a bit!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I know Contessas are slow but even a 10kt bang would be a shock to the system.... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Now since we have hit 19kts that would mean for us a 38kt collision proof boat, well we do have a Kevlar reinforced hull as per bullet proof vest!

Just joking...
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's fair to assume that more planes fall out the sky than keels fall of boats.

[/ QUOTE ] Really? I dont think so - I am guessing its one a year at worst. There are probably more boats breaking one way or the other, but we don't get to hear about them.
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

[ QUOTE ]
What guesses and assumptions have been made about Hooligan, if that's what you're referring to?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just read the first few posts.
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

[ QUOTE ]
stringers omitted from behind the loo

[/ QUOTE ]
Later Contessas had extra reinforcing, extra stringers behind the loo, redesigned shroud bolts etc. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Still, I don't think she'd survive a collision at 60 knots. But maybe these Volvo guys should slow down a bit?

OK, my 2x speed proposal was slightly facetious, as it isn't going to happen at the most rarefied/experimental end of racing. But perhaps something like that should be a minimum for non-professional cruising and racing boats? As mentioned, in Scandinavia it's common to hit rocks at 6 knots etc. - many rocks are uncharted (I found one!), and people regularly bang into them without, so far as I've heard, catastrophic keel failure. So it's obviously not so hard to design a 'normal' fin keel yacht to absorb those kinds of loads with no more than boatyard-repairable damage. Then we wouldn't hear people like Bavaria trying to justify themselves after an accident happened that the yacht must have had a grounding. The correct answer IMHO should be "So what?"
 
Re: We know nothing.....we can talk about.

I posted this earlier in the thread. I've posted it again as no one seems to have noticed it (This is not spamming. This is trying to encourage some research of facts to avoid damaging conclusion emerging from an absence of facts)

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Does anyone actually have any accurate and indisputable data on keel failures across different models of boat. Are there for instance any MAIB findings to suggest problems with particular boats or paticular keel/hull designs.

I feel it would be of great value to the discussion if anyone could point us all in the right direction.
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