Question: Which would you choose and why?

[Bejasus]

3 identical boats except for their rigs, 1 ketch rigged, 1 schooner rigged & 1 sloop rigged, everything else the same. All are Blue Water/Liveaboard/ Motorsailer capable.

Which would you choose & why.

I don't sail, as yet, so let's say that looks apart, I don't know the difference.

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[ccscott49]

Depends how big the rigs are and what winches/gear is aboard.
For me, schooner then ketch. I love the schooner rig, it just looks.....................right!
But of course mines ketch and I like that too, you have more combinations of sail to play with, especially if you have a foresail, aswell as a genoa/yankee, same with schooner, depending on what type of schooner, staysail/wishbone etc. Smaller sails are easier to handle, but with modern handling gear, so is a sloop.

By the way, just as an aside and to start your sail training!! The correct name for the sail behind the stayed/roller genoa, is a foresail, only when the jib/yankee/genoa is set flying, with no stay, is it called a staysail. As on cutter rigs.

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[Bejasus]

Thanks for the extra tuition, but you based your choice basically on aesthetics. What about sailability, stability, etc. Could all be handled with a 2 crew minimum?

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[vyv_cox]

Colin said it but didn't elaborate. If the boat is, over say 40 ft, then a sloop rig might be expected to have a large main and genoa that could pose problems to an elderly/infirm/weak crew. Having the same sail area distributed over two masts reduces the maximum effort required to handle them. Having a cutter rig instead of a genoa reduces the foresail loads further.

On the other hand, a ketch goes far less well upwind than a sloop of the same sail area, but possibly goes better off the wind. It then comes down to your sailing style and preference. Despite all I read about cruising being mostly off the wind, I find that about 90% of mine has the wind right on the nose.

I have read that nobody ever buys a second ketch. Maybe a vestige of truth there?

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[ccscott49]

h00 is looking for a motorsailer type of boat, which go to windward really well, with the donk on! You're quite right about the sail areas, I should have said so, but i thought the post was getting a bit over long. I like ketches and would have another, in fact, i may well later sell Englander and go for a fisher 46 ketch, tall rig with bowsprit. But not just yet!

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[heerenleed]

Colin, I do agree with you about the fantastic looks of a schooner. Like your boat, ours is a ketch, and, honestly, I wouldn't want anything else in this size. A schooner sail needs reefing in a blow, we simply drop the main if things get uncomfortable. As you well know, I should add. A sloop becomes difficult to handle between two people if she is largeish, the sails simply get too big.



<hr width=100% size=1>Peter a/b SV Heerenleed, Steenbergen, Netherlands

 

[qsiv]

I'm not sure that I would always agree with the generalisation - particularly if we talk cutters. Our jib is about 100%, and we never reef, simply furl and go for the staysail. The main is very big, but with good sailhandling systems (fully battened, roller cars) reefing is a simple. Stowing the sail IS fairly hard work.

Having said that if you are going to be motorsailing upwind it is probably better to go with a twin masted rig. Dont forget the greater the separation between the two rigs, the better the chance of the after sail producing some useful drive. To see this, just <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.mari-cha4.com//public_www/display_picture.php?gallery=sailing&id=03_3754d-mari-chaiv-01.jpg>look</A> how the sails on Mari Cha are at progressively tighter sheeting angles as you go aft.


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[Bejasus]

Aha. After websearching, I can at least see what the rig differences are. However, I have only seen the vessel which interests me, in the 3 configurations already mentioned.

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[tome]

I like the idea of a cutter rig with a big overlapping genoa, even though this might interfere with the staysail when tacking. I'd go for a high-cut staysail and then furl the jib and use this alone when deep reefing. Otherwise furl the staysail and use the jib. This seems to me to be a good sloop/cutter compromise though I admit that I haven't tried it.

Agree that modern sail-handling systems makes it much easier to tame the main. I'm in two minds about fitting lazyjacks/pack-a-main. I fitted one to my last boat and it was good but lots of extra string to wrap around reefing lines etc.

Sorry to say that I'm not a fan of the ketch rig, though it looks very pretty.

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[bedouin]

In sailing terms it is generally regarded that

Sloops are the most efficient
Ketches are the most flexible
Schooners are the prettiest

But a lot really depends on the size of the boat

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[ccscott49]

come on then, where is the vessel in question? On the web somewhere?

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[heerenleed]

I don\'t think he\'s going to tell us, Colin nm

.

<hr width=100% size=1>Peter a/b SV Heerenleed, Steenbergen, Netherlands

 

[Bejasus]

Schooner

Sloop

Ketch

All available <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.nauticatuk.co.uk/Broker/Broker.htm>here</A>

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[Twister_Ken]

Ocean 60?

I'm trying to think of a production boat which came in those three variations, and the Ocean 60 is the only one I can come up with.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[Bejasus]

Re: I don\'t think he\'s going to tell us, Colin nm

Patience., I am also in the middle of a job, and as Colin well knows, it can get a bit hectic at 50 bpm.

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[Mirelle]

A useful \"rule\" from Uffa Fox

He said, back in the 1930's, that the maximum size of sail that one man can handle on his own is 500 sq ft.

That was without modern sail handling methods, of course, such as roller reefing headsails, power winches and in mast reefing mainsails. However, since these systems may go wrong, it is still worth thinking about if as you say you plan to have a crew of two.

Uffa Fox had crossed the Atlantic twice and sailed a championship winning International 14 sailing dinghy (undecked!) across the Channel when he wrote that, i.e. he was pretty fit.

So, sloop rig until one sail reaches 500 sq ft, if you are fit and strong. If not, make that figure smaller.

Personally I like my cutter, with a 450 sq ft mainsail...

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[Twister_Ken]

Ah, Nauticats.

The sloop looks dreadfully unbalanced. Doesn't look like they shifted the mast aft to make up for losing the mizen.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[Talbot]

Re: A useful \"rule\" from Uffa Fox

Doo you consider that there is any difference in upwind/downwind sailing ability with the cutter rig compared to the more common bermudian rig. I have a 130% reefing genoa andd consider that this is a bit on the large size for heavy weather, but is needed in lighter airs so have been considering a bowsprit and change to cutter rig with self tacking staysail - what are your comments??

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[Bejasus]

Agreed about the sloop rig looking a little strange.
Comfort was one of the reasons for looking at the 44. There are 2 aft cabin configs but I was after an island double berth. Mizzen gives a slight problem in the aft cabin and schooner in the forward. I.e. the masts.
Schooner does look very pretty, but I also think the ketch looks good too. I don't want the sailing part to become a chore so given that I am 52, although fairly fit, and SWMBO, a fair maiden of shh, 38, intelligent and verrry handy at most things men can do, I think I would favour the ketch personally.
What about poor weather sailing? Which is easiest in a storm. I.e reefing etc?

I also beleive the Nauticats have a very good build quality. Related to Nauter??

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[Sybarite]

I have read many accounts of liveaboard cruisers who have regretted the ketch option ( eg David Sadler - I think - with a Trintella ketch) : more windage, more cost, less windward efficiency. However the Nauticat 44 is not a boat for sailing to windward, you just switch on the 140 horses. Or you are a very patient person. Therefore when you sail it will be mainly with the wind on or aft of the beam. In this case the ketch would probably work well because you can add a mizzen staysail. The mizzen mast is also useful to mount the radar dome. I don't know enough about schooners but have often heard criticisms about their sailing ability to windward. As QSIV says, you need to have the masts well apart so that the sails don't imlpact each other and I don't think the Nauticat is long enough.

Otherwise it is a very comfortable boat where you can get out of the weather yet still helm on deck if needs be. The emphasis though has to be on cruising comfort rather than the pleasure of a sensitive helm.

John




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