OceanSprint
Well-Known Member
Could i ask Gwylan why a cover for the outboard well is needed?
Question about trident and Achilles 24
- Thread starter steve yates
- Start date
Gwylan
Well-Known Member
Because a truthful amount of water that can be thrown up through the hole. Oh and the odds and ends that want to escape and throw themselves into the water.
{151760}
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I'd call it a plug rather than a cover. You remove the outboard and insert a GRP plug. It smooths off the hull for less resistance and prevents water ingress. Having said that, we managed well enough without one for 10 years, not wishing to use storage space for the motor.
{151760}
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Fair enough. Good luck. I like the jaguars, too, though many have the dinette arrangement in the saloon, which I don't like. I prefer a 'bunk each side' layout.Norm, you misunderstand me, I don't think it is too small. I just don't think it is as big as it's Rep. It's become a bit of an urban myth, the most space you can get on a 26ft boat.
I just don't think that's true, from my limited impressions. Sure it may be more than the Achilles and trident, it has extra length and height after all, but other 26 footers seem more spacious, and the 25 ft jaguar is definitely much more spacious!
In truth, after my bradwell, anything will be an improvement in living space
OceanSprint
Well-Known Member
Ah. The 9.9 yam in the well in my jag24 is way too heavy to lift out except to take it to be serviced.
Mind you, ive never had water come up the well, nor things drop down it.
Achillesheel
Well-Known Member
We only need a 4hp Suzuki in the well of our Achilles, we tend to sail with it in because SWMBO is petite and not a confident sailor, so we need the engine available in case of emergency. It does make a small difference to the performance, and on the very rare occasions that we race, we take the engine out and put the plug in.
We also get lots of comments along the lines of "Ah, the Achilles 24, great little boats, I used to have one, best boat I ever owned".
Bit like when I owned my classic mini.
We also get lots of comments along the lines of "Ah, the Achilles 24, great little boats, I used to have one, best boat I ever owned".
Bit like when I owned my classic mini.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Not too small per se, just not obviously great on space as its rep implies. I found a mirage 26 a lot better, even a little hunter horizon 23 seemed more open and airy inside
I should probably add, my boat will be used for extended cruising, so anything from 3 day trips to 2 weeks will be regular, sometime longer. She will not be used for daysails or racing round the cans, she is an out and out cruiser.
Steve
What is the big thing about drying out. & what is your budget?
I know where there is a fair boat for sale , fin keel with trailer for laying up
No work needed other than antifoul for the year. loads of room & sails well
far better than a centaur
FOR SALE - Yacht / (Cruiser) Tomahawk 25 Peau Rouge
Fin keel
• 8hp diesel inboard
• 5 berth
• 2 sets sails including spinnaker
• Launch/recovery trailor
• Avon tender & Suzuki outboard
• Mooring tackle (not mooring site)
£8,950 ono
Contact: Paul or Sarah Stobbs 01621 843058
Cannot post a picture
steve yates
Well-Known Member
Thx, out of my budget.
I like drying out against harbour walls, hence the preference, but it's not an absolute.
I like drying out against harbour walls, hence the preference, but it's not an absolute.
oldharry
Well-Known Member
Bilge keels on the S coast are more or less mandatory for anyone sailing on a tight budget. Deep water moorings are prohibitively expensive for low cost boaters. Marina berths can cost almost as much as the boat itself at the budget end of things..
I dont think its reasonable to compare accommodation between a 24 footer and 26 foot plus. There just arent any 24 footers that can compare with a Centaur for accommodation. Also performance wise, the extra two or three feet of w/l length makes a big difference. Budgetwise, a half way useable Centaur will cost at least twice as much as a Trident. Yes you can buy them cheaper, but by the time you get afloat you will have spent the difference anyway!
So asuming budget constraints are significant we come back to the choice between a Trident and an Achilles, as OP originally asked. Firstly the Achilles: I would go along with all the previous posters comments about these excellent boats, both good and bad! Yes they perform well, yes accommodation is not much better than a rabbit hutch, yes they have outboards in a well, but that is a mixed blessing too.
Then the Trident. I have to admit a strong bias here m'lud as an owner and as Commodore of the Owners Association, which will tell you thats the boat I would go for! Maybe not quite as fast as the Achilles, but the Achilles would have difficulty in shaking off a Trident. I can say that from first hand experience! A drop keel Trident is still a competitive racing boat at club racing level, and a couple of years ago one remained unbeaten in an entire seasons racing. The club tried to invent rules to slow him down, but he remained uncatchable! Where the Trident really wins hands down over the Achilles is the accommodation which at least allows you to stand up to pull your trousers on! She also sports a seperate loo, if that matters. The engine does not necessarily intrude on the accomodation. Many are fitted with the Yanmar 1gm10, or Beta which tucks in nicely under the cockpit steps. Only if someone has fitted something oversize like the Volvo MD7A in mine does it make its presence felt in the cabin. Even so its not seriously intrusive, and the engine casing makes a useful washing up area!
So the choice really is whether you want an out and out sailing boat in which case the Achilles has a slight edge over the Trident. But if you want a good fast budget all rounder cruiser, then the Trident more than fiull the bill.
However, having had a 26 footer, if the budget allows buying a decent one then go for it. But dont make the mistake of buying cheap. Theres no such thing as a cheap boat to 'do up'. You WILL end up spending as much as you would if you splashed out on a good one! Lots of people have done it, and know the reality and pain as the profit from the 'bargain' disappears into the Chandlery tills! About the only benefit is that you know your boat inside out, and know where the weak points are!
I dont think its reasonable to compare accommodation between a 24 footer and 26 foot plus. There just arent any 24 footers that can compare with a Centaur for accommodation. Also performance wise, the extra two or three feet of w/l length makes a big difference. Budgetwise, a half way useable Centaur will cost at least twice as much as a Trident. Yes you can buy them cheaper, but by the time you get afloat you will have spent the difference anyway!
So asuming budget constraints are significant we come back to the choice between a Trident and an Achilles, as OP originally asked. Firstly the Achilles: I would go along with all the previous posters comments about these excellent boats, both good and bad! Yes they perform well, yes accommodation is not much better than a rabbit hutch, yes they have outboards in a well, but that is a mixed blessing too.
Then the Trident. I have to admit a strong bias here m'lud as an owner and as Commodore of the Owners Association, which will tell you thats the boat I would go for! Maybe not quite as fast as the Achilles, but the Achilles would have difficulty in shaking off a Trident. I can say that from first hand experience! A drop keel Trident is still a competitive racing boat at club racing level, and a couple of years ago one remained unbeaten in an entire seasons racing. The club tried to invent rules to slow him down, but he remained uncatchable! Where the Trident really wins hands down over the Achilles is the accommodation which at least allows you to stand up to pull your trousers on! She also sports a seperate loo, if that matters. The engine does not necessarily intrude on the accomodation. Many are fitted with the Yanmar 1gm10, or Beta which tucks in nicely under the cockpit steps. Only if someone has fitted something oversize like the Volvo MD7A in mine does it make its presence felt in the cabin. Even so its not seriously intrusive, and the engine casing makes a useful washing up area!
So the choice really is whether you want an out and out sailing boat in which case the Achilles has a slight edge over the Trident. But if you want a good fast budget all rounder cruiser, then the Trident more than fiull the bill.
However, having had a 26 footer, if the budget allows buying a decent one then go for it. But dont make the mistake of buying cheap. Theres no such thing as a cheap boat to 'do up'. You WILL end up spending as much as you would if you splashed out on a good one! Lots of people have done it, and know the reality and pain as the profit from the 'bargain' disappears into the Chandlery tills! About the only benefit is that you know your boat inside out, and know where the weak points are!
steve yates
Well-Known Member
That's really useful oldharry, thx. As I said I want a cruiser, not a racer, and I want enough space to live in for a couple of weeks, I don't need acres of space, but I need some to lounge in comfortably, and a separateloo is a must.So I can safely rule out an Achilles. I have a potentially really nice 23 footer lined up, the accom is cosy rather than roomy, so I just need to decide if it's a compromise I can make for the rest of her.
alahol2
Well-Known Member
I was just thinking that a Vivacity 24 hasn't been mentioned as it seems to fit your requirements. Look it up and find it's by the same designer as the Trident.
http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/vivacity-24/vivacity-24.htm
http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/vivacity-24/vivacity-24.htm
Moonbeam
Well-Known Member
Seajet
...
Ive been on triple keel Trident 24's and Achilles 24's.
The Achilles sails very well indeed and is very seaworthy, but will give a very wet sail, tending to go through rather than over head seas.
The triple keel Achilles will settle fairly upright on sand or at a yard, but the bilge keels are small and dig in so they heel over on soft mud.
The snag is, I'm not that fussy about swinging cats, but I was shocked how tiny the Achilles is inside; on my chum's example it was a case of ' stow the inflatable OR the people in the cabin, not both...'
The Trident is not so fast, but I got to sail one a fair bit last year ( triple keel ) and I was very pleasantly surprised.
The interiors are very good for 24' and the build quality extremely substantial; they're also a pretty boat, which is important !
For general purpose cruising the Trident would definitely get my vote BUT there is a catch...
The Achilles uses an outboard in a well, which saves weight, is easy to maintain, or even replace - a 4-5hp would be fine.
The Trident usually has an inboard - and an outboard would be problematic with the counter transom as well as look god-awful - so with Tridents, make sure the engine is good and ideally replaced fairly recently, or an old engine could be a nightmare re both hassle and cost.
As on any boat secondhand boat be careful the sails and rig are good too, or that's another set of costly item/s.
The Achilles sails very well indeed and is very seaworthy, but will give a very wet sail, tending to go through rather than over head seas.
The triple keel Achilles will settle fairly upright on sand or at a yard, but the bilge keels are small and dig in so they heel over on soft mud.
The snag is, I'm not that fussy about swinging cats, but I was shocked how tiny the Achilles is inside; on my chum's example it was a case of ' stow the inflatable OR the people in the cabin, not both...'
The Trident is not so fast, but I got to sail one a fair bit last year ( triple keel ) and I was very pleasantly surprised.
The interiors are very good for 24' and the build quality extremely substantial; they're also a pretty boat, which is important !
For general purpose cruising the Trident would definitely get my vote BUT there is a catch...
The Achilles uses an outboard in a well, which saves weight, is easy to maintain, or even replace - a 4-5hp would be fine.
The Trident usually has an inboard - and an outboard would be problematic with the counter transom as well as look god-awful - so with Tridents, make sure the engine is good and ideally replaced fairly recently, or an old engine could be a nightmare re both hassle and cost.
As on any boat secondhand boat be careful the sails and rig are good too, or that's another set of costly item/s.
doug748
Well-Known Member
Can't remember if I have chipped in before but there we are.
The Hurley 24 has a lot of followers:
http://www.hurleyownersassociation.co.uk/documents/24.pdf
Observe the depth of the keels and the splay which gives a tadge more grip on the water than some earlier designs. We are not talking upwind fliers here but the Hurley might well be good enough for your requirements in harbour and even better at sea.
No bilge keelers available at the moment but you could well be suited for under 4k.
The Hurley 24 has a lot of followers:
http://www.hurleyownersassociation.co.uk/documents/24.pdf
Observe the depth of the keels and the splay which gives a tadge more grip on the water than some earlier designs. We are not talking upwind fliers here but the Hurley might well be good enough for your requirements in harbour and even better at sea.
No bilge keelers available at the moment but you could well be suited for under 4k.
oldharry
Well-Known Member
Inboard or outboard either way its essential it works reliably. I have had both and personally, on a cruising boat over 20-22 feet would opt for the more expensive inboard version every time.
1. The prop is ahead of the rudder and this makes for a huge improvement in handling, allowing you to 'kick' the stern sideways (with a little practice!)
2. Outboards of more than around 6 -8hp are hefty brutes and arent going to be lifted on and off in a hurry. Yes there are workarounds, but its all more hassle particularly if you are short handed as OP plans to be!
3. Transom mounted outboards are much more vulnerable. Mooring lines will catch on them and potentially lift them off their brackets if there is a lot of movement for example. They dont make very good fenders either when things go pear shaped at the back end! Your expensive outboard will not survuve being crushed between a couple of tons of boat and a harbour wall fro example!
4. A transom mounted outboard can be totally useless in a rough sea if the prop gets anywhere near the surface or worse still lifts out of the water.
5. Petrol. Storing enough petrol on board for a cruising boat can become a major safety issue. It only takes a slight leak, a slightly insecure filler cap or a damaged cap seal for petrol to leak and turn the boat into a floating bomb. yes I know gas does the same, but we dont usually open our gas containers except when we re changing the bottles.
6. Fuel cost and availability. We are so used to topping up the car it comes as a bit of a shock to find that waterside petrol supplies can be few and far between. You wouldnt go near a garage selling fuel for the prices commonly found at marina petrol pumps. Be ready to pay £1.50 a litre or more waterside against £1.20 roadside. A garage is supposed to stop you putting petrol in cans bigger than 5l anyway if its not being delivered in to the cars tank, but few garages bother. Waterside fuel stations however are often very careful about the regs fro selling cans of petrol.
Inboard Cons are weight, accessibility and cost.
Outboard wells answer several of the above points: the engine is securely inside the hull, puts the prop ahead of the rudder giving the manoeuverability of an inboard. It also helps keep the prop properly submerged in rough water. However watch for possible exhaust fumes from the engine coming in to the cockpit - unpleasant and potentially dangerous if the engine is at all smoky. They are quite a good compromise if properly designed, but the size of engine needed to drive a 24 footer makes it a pretty hefty beast all the same!
You pays yer money and takes yer choice! but I know what i want in a cruising boat.
1. The prop is ahead of the rudder and this makes for a huge improvement in handling, allowing you to 'kick' the stern sideways (with a little practice!)
2. Outboards of more than around 6 -8hp are hefty brutes and arent going to be lifted on and off in a hurry. Yes there are workarounds, but its all more hassle particularly if you are short handed as OP plans to be!
3. Transom mounted outboards are much more vulnerable. Mooring lines will catch on them and potentially lift them off their brackets if there is a lot of movement for example. They dont make very good fenders either when things go pear shaped at the back end! Your expensive outboard will not survuve being crushed between a couple of tons of boat and a harbour wall fro example!
4. A transom mounted outboard can be totally useless in a rough sea if the prop gets anywhere near the surface or worse still lifts out of the water.
5. Petrol. Storing enough petrol on board for a cruising boat can become a major safety issue. It only takes a slight leak, a slightly insecure filler cap or a damaged cap seal for petrol to leak and turn the boat into a floating bomb. yes I know gas does the same, but we dont usually open our gas containers except when we re changing the bottles.
6. Fuel cost and availability. We are so used to topping up the car it comes as a bit of a shock to find that waterside petrol supplies can be few and far between. You wouldnt go near a garage selling fuel for the prices commonly found at marina petrol pumps. Be ready to pay £1.50 a litre or more waterside against £1.20 roadside. A garage is supposed to stop you putting petrol in cans bigger than 5l anyway if its not being delivered in to the cars tank, but few garages bother. Waterside fuel stations however are often very careful about the regs fro selling cans of petrol.
Inboard Cons are weight, accessibility and cost.
Outboard wells answer several of the above points: the engine is securely inside the hull, puts the prop ahead of the rudder giving the manoeuverability of an inboard. It also helps keep the prop properly submerged in rough water. However watch for possible exhaust fumes from the engine coming in to the cockpit - unpleasant and potentially dangerous if the engine is at all smoky. They are quite a good compromise if properly designed, but the size of engine needed to drive a 24 footer makes it a pretty hefty beast all the same!
You pays yer money and takes yer choice! but I know what i want in a cruising boat.
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MOBY2
Well-Known Member
+1 for the above, but then I am biased, think as others have said try and find some locally and go and look over them but as with most things pro's and con's with every boat... Will pass go with your gut, about eight years ago a trident popped up for sale near me, went to the marina could not find it for love nor money though I would drop into Dell quay as close by to see what was there just in case... Will pass and there she was... Lottie... Was completely hooked, did explore other options westerly, Seamaster, vivacity, Leisure, in fact was nearly going to Plymouth to look at a cracking example, new beta, rewired completely and I mean completely refurbished throughout... Just add water but I new everything a trident came past I would be wishing I could had got that instead, so as I say go with your gut.
MOBY2
Well-Known Member
Sorry should have read it back, please disregard the 'will pass' bits don't know why it adds them and the boat I nearly went to see was a Liesure.
James W
Well-Known Member
I've had a Trident 24, Achilles 24 and Hurley 24/70 (I know, too many 24 foot boats)!
The Trident is a solid cruiser, good turn of speed, the triple dries wonderfully upright, but please only consider one that's been re-engined (I didn't and that was the end of that). Great owners association. They can look a bit dated but some of them have been refitted and look wonderful.
The Achilles is fast and fun, but it has its issues. It's tiny inside, but somehow it's a nice, snug tiny. Maybe not one for an extended cruise, but the grin factor would be high.
The Hurley 24/70 is a lovely little battle cruiser of a yacht. Solid as a rock, encapsulated keels, 6 foot headroom, good sized cabin for size with galley, heads, etc. Not fast by any standards but will get you there in most weathers. Again, there are plenty of dogs out there and pay close attention to the engine. I sold my lovely condition one with a Beta inboard with 100 hours on it for 3K.
Good luck and have fun in your quest!
The Trident is a solid cruiser, good turn of speed, the triple dries wonderfully upright, but please only consider one that's been re-engined (I didn't and that was the end of that). Great owners association. They can look a bit dated but some of them have been refitted and look wonderful.
The Achilles is fast and fun, but it has its issues. It's tiny inside, but somehow it's a nice, snug tiny. Maybe not one for an extended cruise, but the grin factor would be high.
The Hurley 24/70 is a lovely little battle cruiser of a yacht. Solid as a rock, encapsulated keels, 6 foot headroom, good sized cabin for size with galley, heads, etc. Not fast by any standards but will get you there in most weathers. Again, there are plenty of dogs out there and pay close attention to the engine. I sold my lovely condition one with a Beta inboard with 100 hours on it for 3K.
Good luck and have fun in your quest!
Concerto
Well-Known Member
I have a bias towards Westerly's as I sail a Fulmar, so agree a Centaur would suit but cost more.
Trawling through to see how much a Mystere 26 would cost and found this one within budget at £1495, but needs some attention throughout. It has a working Volvo 2002 engine. If can do the work, then this might be worth looking at.
http://www.channelyachtsales.com/listings/mystere-flyer-26/
Trawling through to see how much a Mystere 26 would cost and found this one within budget at £1495, but needs some attention throughout. It has a working Volvo 2002 engine. If can do the work, then this might be worth looking at.
http://www.channelyachtsales.com/listings/mystere-flyer-26/
steve yates
Well-Known Member
Damn james, where were you when I needed you