Qualified to sail?

[Nick1602]

My wife and I are in the very early planning stage of buying a liveaboard boat with a view to cruising the world.

I'm a deck officer in the Merchant Navy and would like to find out where I stand with regards to certificates? I've been working as a Second Mate for the last 8 years having made my way up through the ranks from AB. Am I entitled to ask the RYA for automatic certification as Ocean Master or would I have to take examinations? I believe i'm probably over qualified when it comes to navigation but have very little experience of handling a yacht under sail. It shouldn't take me long to get the basics, after 30 years at sea I've had lots of handling experience with all sizes of vessels from lifeboats and fast rescue craft, right up to 130,000tonne Iron ore carriers in all kinds of weathers. Can I just sail off around the world? and would port authorities allow me to enter on the commercial certificates I have?

Also what are the prospects for chartering your boat out? Can you make a living at it? We're thinking of buying a used 45-50ft boat probably Jeanneau or Beneteau.

Any help or advice would be great

Nick & Shirley


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[elenya]

hi nick

i'm afraid you will probaly have to do all the examinations, but that shouldn't be a problem! ( i was asked to do them despite a deck class 1 ). the rya will be able to tell you of any exemptions etc. qualifacations overseas are not a problem outside europe as there is no requirement for any on pleasure vessels ( i'm not sure about europe as i sailed out in 93 before the curent political setup ).
if you wish to charter legally you will have to approach the country you are in for local chartering or get classed in uk for world wide use ( same as all commercial world trading vessels).
basically you can sail off around the world with no experience or qualification. some countries require their flagged vessels to have a minimum standard of construction, equipment and qualifications for the skipper/ crew ( new zealand for example ). not a bad idea judging by some people and boats ive met!
i'm sure others on the fotum will be able to add more info. enjoy the sailing and traveling

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[neutronstar]

Having done all three (theory) RYA courses, I should be 'qualified' but the rule of accepting thousands of miles sailed previously (commercial or private) as a practical pass, appeared to be waved for various reasons. So on principle, as well as on the grounds of cost, I chose not to take the practical tests. I have since (over the last 25 yrs) been told that three different types of qualification or paperwork are needed when sailing to Europe, however when visiting there I was never approached for ANY documentation (not even a passport).

In short I have found the situation to be 'unpredictable in every sence' exept for the sure knowledge that some new legislation will pop up every ten years or so.

In the case of friends and fellow yachtsmen with merchant qualifications I have no better news for you. Their situation is in my opinion even worse. One friend of a friend with a full ticket and who still takes tankers anywhere in the world was told that his masters qualification "could go some way to helping his RYA status" and I have seen other occasions where on production of the little black folder by a captain, some of my fellow yachties did not even know what it was.

I have the utmost respect for anyone who gets through a Board of Trade test but you may well find I am a rarety. You are quite special in that you sailed ships, but also have a respect for small vessels. I believe your skills will carry you through most situations regardless of any additional paperwork.

That is provided you can get used to mooring without the aid of tugs !

Enjoy your cruising.

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[Anonymous]

Hi Nick,

Qualifications: I learnt about yachting from the family and was a private pilot so when I got my own small sailing cruiser I just sailed without any formal qualifications. Nobody asked me for any paperwork in the UK, France or the C.I.s and my insurer wasn't interested, either. A few years ago I saw an advertisement at a sailing school for the International Certificate test for £50. I booked the test - an examiner (really nice guy, just a normal sailing instructor) came on board for half a day and questionned me, looked through my charts, logbook went sailing (a few simple mandatory manoeveurs), had lunch on board and left having passed me. It was not at all test-like and since it was only me and the instructor, he was able to determine to his satisfaction that I knew the stuff without having to sit an exam under test conditions. No sailing instructor is going to ask a qualified Deck Officer to explain the difference between deviation and variation, is he? I really enjoyed the half day and also learnt quite a lot from the instructor who was eager to share his knowledge.

As far as I am aware, the International Certificate (everyone seems to call it the ICC but it doesn't say ICC on my certificate) is proof enough and is an international 'permit'. My document was issued by the RYA and is called "International Certificate For Operator of Pleasure Craft". I've heard it said that the UK RYA exams such as Yachtmasters and Day Skipper are not even recognised overseas - but I would be grateful if someone would set this straight if I am wrong.

Permission to Enter Harbour: In my experience this doesn't really apply to pleasure craft except in a few special places. One doesn't call the harbour authorities in advance in a 45'-50' yacht, you just turn up. In large ports there are usually special yacht channels which local yachts usually stick to though visiting yachts often use the main channel unless there is conflicting commercial traffic (I do if I have any doubts about depths and the exact course of the yacht channel)

Chartering: I don't know about the licencing requirements but I understand that it would be very hard to earn serious money chartering your yacht (skippered). You can offset the cost of your yachting against income tax if you are using your yacht for income purposes - say writing/researching a book, painting, photography, and so on. But you'd have to provide reasonable evidence that you are at least trying to make money by selling the fruits of your labour, if HM Inspector asks for it. Don't forget that if you are going to take third parties on board you need to be covered by liability insurance. If someone was injured or drowned you could lose every last penny you own - in the insurance world there is a big difference between doing something for social reasons and doing it for business.

I am also looking to buy a similar boat - I think I'm settling on Jeanneau. I'm very keen on the deck-saloon type because you can watch the world go by when seated in the saloon. You can feel cut-off when living aboard if you have to stand up to see what's going on in the harbour. I especially like the 43DS but I'm worried that it might be just a few feet too small. Good luck.

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[windrush_roy]

I am in a similar position. I have a class 1 deck and have been in command of a square rig sailing ship using the qualification. Providing you feel confident about what you are doing you are probably as well placed as anyone, and better than most! I regularly cruise Northern Europe proudly clutching my Masters Ticket and GMDSS General Operators Certificate and no-one (in authority) has ever questioned it.

The ICC might help in some countries, particularly when navigating inland.

Go for it!



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[snowleopard]

you don't 'need' any qualifications to go sailing from the uk and i can't imagine any foreign authorities quibbling about a deck officer's ticket.

because of the boat handling aspects, you won't be given a yachtmaster without a practical exam. they would however probably issue an ICC on the basis of your existing qualifications. why not email them and ask?

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[Anonymous]

There are defined manoeveurs in the IC test - a triangular course under sail, MOB demonstration, picking up a buoy, coming alongside and leaving under power are all included. The examiner had a form to tick during the half day but he didn't stick to it in a rigid order. He mostly filled in the form at the end. There's no way he could have given a pass without the practical. I would strongly suggest it is done on one's own boat because the examiner can see what you have been doing - all your notes, gear, charts, etc. tell the story about you better than any question and answer session or exam could.

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[neutronstar]

This IC test appears to be the latest one to pop up.

Its being sold very well by some contributors to this group.

Your initial query involved the 'requirement' of such qualification.

I still am not confident in stating that it is 'essential', or that along with all the other codings and certs. it is of any higher standing than the others.

My boat gets a good belting by at least one other motor boat or yacht each year (always when I am moored at the pontoon), they all do a bunk or pretend not to have noticed, and they are all as far as I know 'qualified'.

The skippers or the Marchioness and the Bow Bell were both fully qualified ....


If you can handle big and small vessels and have sailed for years (even decades) it should count for a lot, but it may not in some circles.

p.s. these courses are not cheap.


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[fluffc]

It is a tricky one for the examiners that are faced with a Merchant Seaman wanting or needing to do a Yachtmaster exam. Indeed, the navigational aspect is wholeheartedly taken care of. But that is almost where it stops.

The practicalities of handling a small vessel, entering harbours, dealing with commercial traffic, looking after crew, and so on are all different. At one level you'd think there would be an allowance for supertanker drivers to drive ickle boats - but then they are different beasts.


As regards the "RYA" exams, it works like this:

RYA Competent Crew Course - basic skills aboard a yacht
You end up with an "RYA Competent Crew Certificate"

RYA Day Skipper Course - ability to take a small yacht on short coastal cruises
You end up with an "RYA Day Skipper Certificate"

RYA Coastal Skipper Course - ability to take a yacht on longer coastal cruises
You end up with an "RYA Coastal Skipper Practical Course Completion certificate"

Then you could take the Department of Transport Coastal Skipper exam

RYA Yachtmaster Course
You end up with an "RYA Yachtmaster Practical Course Completion certificate" I think

Then you could take the "proper" Department of Transport Yachtmaster (Offshore) Exam

Then you could take the "proper" Department of Transport Yachtmaster (Ocean) Exam


You don't have to do every exam or course - you can skip some if you want.

Note that it is the DOT certificates that you will need worldwide - the RYA ones aren't so widely recognised. Hope this helps...

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[Anonymous]

So where does the (RYA issued) International Certificate come into this, and what is its worth in terms of 'official' qualifications? I'm talking about the 'letter' of the requirements in Europe, not what actually happens (i.e. nobody asks for qualification unless something goes wrong).

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[BrendanS]

bit more info here

Generally, an ICC is required when navigating the inland waterways of Europe, the main notable exception is The Netherlands. In Holland an ICC is only required by vessels that are either longer than 15 metres and/or capable of more than 20 kph (~ 11 knots). If cruising to Europe to explore the canals and rivers, both categories 'coastal' and 'inland' will be required and so the CEVNI test, as well as proof of general boat handling competence, is needed.

It should also be noted that most European countries insist that vessels navigating their inland waters carry a copy of the relevant local rules. For France, The RYA Book of Euroregs for Inland Waterways suffices, but it does not for Holland or Germany. Those countries insist that their own publications, written only in their native languages, are carried. It is probably advisable to also carry the Euroregs book so that there is an English version of CEVNI on board too. More information about what publications are required is available from the RYA booklets Planning a Foreign Cruise, Volumes 1 and 2 (C1/2000 and C2/98), which are available at a cost of £4.90 from the RYA (a charge for postage will be made) or from most good chandlers.

For coastal areas in Northern Europe and Scandinavia, the ICC is generally not required. Again, there are exceptions and these include Poland and the Baltic States of Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia. It is also useful to have one in Germany. Conversely, in the Mediterranean an ICC is usually required, particularly in Italy, Greece, Croatia and Turkey. ICCs are not required in Spain on British flagged yachts. However, Spanish harbour masters and other officials are used to their own nationals having to be licensed and so can be difficult to persuade that British flagged vessels do not require them. You either have to be prepared to stand your ground and argue the case or you may decide that it is easier to actually have an ICC. Portugal does require skippers to hold the ICC.


<hr width=100% size=1>There is no such thing as "fun for the whole family."

 

[Nick1602]

Thanks for all the replies. Some interesting and good advice there. At first glance it looks like we will probably take the ICC route, although we're not even sure we will bother with that. From the little research we've done, it would seem that for yachties, rules are a little less inforced. What we're really searching for is the the independence that the life aboard a yacht gives you. If basically we can sail round the world without any qualifications whatsoever, then we're quite prepared to just go for it. Of course with my years of experience at sea I am not going to put myself or my wife in any unnecessary danger if at all possible. But from what I can gather all I really need to do is learn how to handle a yacht in any situation in any weather and can only get that by experience. I can't see that weeks of sailing with the RYA to get a ocean's yachtmasters is going to benefit me. What if the entire training period is carried out in fair weather? That isn't going to teach me how to handle a yacht any better. What I really need is someone who lives on the South coast, preferably East Sussex area who's got a yacht and would be prepared to teach us how to sail.

Please keep your advice coming, we're at the bottom end of a steep learning curve and hoping to make good progress and learn as much as possible about what we are letting ourselves in for.

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[Koeketiene]

You seem to have come to the right conclusion.

You will find that the experience of having been at sea for a long time will help you a lot. I have only been sailing for a couple of years, yet I have been at sea my entire adult life. It's a state of mind really - look upon it as mustering on a different kind of ship. More relaxing, more fun, yet sometimes more demanding.

Qualifications? If you feel you have to. But a piece of paper doesn't make up for basic common sense and healthy respect for the sea. Over these past few years I obtained my Yachtmaster Offshore because I wanted to prove something to myself; not because I had to or because I needed a job. There was a lot to do a while back about a couple of fast track yachtmasters who got into difficulty in the channel. Later they said that during training they had never been out in more than a F6. What's the point of that? IMHO yachtmaster training should prepare you for the worst case scenario. Old personal motto: train hard - fight easy.
There is no substitute for experience.

You will find that you will come to little, or no, harm if you follow these basic guidelines:
1. Know yourself and your limitations
2. Know you boat and its limitations
3. Be aware at all times of the limitations & state of mind of your crew (even if it is your wife)
4. Don't take the sea for granted - respect!

Enjoy the sailing life

<hr width=100% size=1>Fair winds.
If not... reef early!

 

[fluffc]

The confusing thing about the ICC is that there are so many ways to get it. Even I don't know them all.

For example, an RYA Powerboat beginners course (Level 1/2) with a small amount of additional paperwork will get you an ICC...

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[Anonymous]

As I understand it, the RYA is the UK agency handling the issue of UK ICCs. There is an international syllabus and test. The RYA's role is to authorise examiners and issue certificates. When I took mine, I had to pay the examiner his fee - I think that they can charge what they like, I paid £50 - plus a fee to the RYA for the issuing of the license itself. RYA members pay less so it might pay to join even if only for that year

I was tested for sail but decided not to do the inland waterways section, so my certificate is endorsed for coastal, sail and power, not inland. Clearly a test carried out on a sailing vessel with an auxilliary engine gives you a licence for both categories. I seem to remember being asked in some detail about my experience and my night experience and he asked questions about the colregs, lights, etc. but in a relaxed way, not like an official test or interview. Obviously I brushed up and looked through the text books before the test 'just in case' but it wasn't really necessary.

The beauty of the test from my point of view was that I was not obliged to undergo any paper exams, or attend courses. I booked the test with an examiner in Fowey and we sailed in for a long weekend - both my wife and I found the test day enjoyable and enjoyed the examiner's company. The examiner questionned me, looked at my log books, charts, and we went out sailing. To be quite honest, I think the requirement for the ICC is pretty basic. They are looking for sound basic knowledge, safety and seamanship, not graceful sailing.

I really do think that anyone who has been cruising their own boat, sail or power for a few years, night and day, out of sight of land, will already know enough to make the test very straightforward. There really isn't anything to be worried about.

I suspect that you will not have to do any paperwork at all for the coastal ICC although there is a written test for the inland waterways section, which I didn't sit.

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[Kedge]

Hi Nick,
For the small effort it takes, I think it's worth getting an ICC - I got mine from the RYA as I had done the Day Skipper Paractical test a few years ago. From my recent experience in Greece, where some harbour masters wanted to see sailing qualifications, it was worth it for the saving in hassle - I cleared my paperwork in 5 minutes whilst some non ICC skippers were there for ages justifying their experience.

Ian

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[Tim_Bennett]

Nick - good question. I'm ex - Merch also, but now enjoy the real challenge of the sea - sailing smallish yachts. In the early days i got by on my class 1, but found this met with disdain in some quarters. Since qualifying as DOT YM I tend to receive more respect and therefore less hassle. However, most importantly, any sailing is good experience, especially if you get to sail with experienced instructors and examiners. You won't have any problems getting yachty qualifications, the price charged by most sailing schools is very reasonable (IMO), and you'll also pick up some useful tips from others who have been sailing a long time. They will also benefit from your professional experience so everyone wins! In short, to answer your question, go for it - everyone wins, you ease thro' local regs without inquisition, and it won't break the bank.
Regarding chartering, I looked into this some time ago and veered away from it. Reasons: 1. The idea of being a steward never really appealed. 2. Most punters want their money's worth at your expense. 3. Do you really want to live on a small boat (which is also your pride and joy) for a week or so at a time with complete strangers.
Just a few personal thoughts but hope they help. Whatever, good luck with it.
Tim

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