Qualifications for a 118 footer !

[Wiggo]

tonnage has abosolutely nothing to do with weight. It's volume. Even if she was made as a large yoghurt pot with no insides, and weighing 100kg, she would still be about 250tonnes

I seem to remember doing the approximate calcs for grt and a 200t vessel oddly enough comes out at around 24-25m length (based on 'average' hull shapes). That was enough to tell me that some thought had gone in to the "24m or 200 grt" limit to a commercial YM...

 

[The engineer]

As far as I am aware there is no 24m limit to a YM. It is a valid qualification for vessels above 24m.
less than 200 tons is the only limitation. <150nm for a YM offshore and unlimited for YM ocean

Captain Ludd,
I have never seen written a limit to private vessels that can be operated without quals (red flag) in Britain, sorry.
My limited knowledge only extends to what you can do with a qualification as it is quite clear. It is written on the certificate!
The grey area I have encountered was with a 110' vessel that did not charter but was company owned for tax purposes. It was chartered to the owner for accounting purposes. Through this issue it was explained to me that if the vessel is privately registered and not chartered no quals were required. This came from the management company who deal with some of the largest yachts around.

 

[nickd]

According to the MCA any boat over 24metres or carrying more than 12 passengers requires a boat master's licence

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/workingatsea/mcga-trainingandcert/ds-ss-bml1stop.htm

Definition here:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/bml_tier_1-level_1.pdf

So I dont think a couple of days doing day skipper is going to work

 

[Reverend Ludd]

That only works up to 24m waterline length.

Captain Ludd,
I have never seen written a limit to private vessels that can be operated without quals (red flag) in Britain, sorry.
My limited knowledge only extends to what you can do with a qualification as it is quite clear. It is written on the certificate!
The grey area I have encountered was with a 110' vessel that did not charter but was company owned for tax purposes. It was chartered to the owner for accounting purposes. Through this issue it was explained to me that if the vessel is privately registered and not chartered no quals were required. This came from the management company who deal with some of the largest yachts around.

That makes more sense than the quote above. I am much concerned to clear this up as I intend to win the lottery tomorrow and will have to alter my plans quickly.

 

[Reverend Ludd]

According to the MCA any boat over 24metres or carrying more than 12 passengers requires a boat master's licence

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/workingatsea/mcga-trainingandcert/ds-ss-bml1stop.htm

Definition here:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/bml_tier_1-level_1.pdf

So I dont think a couple of days doing day skipper is going to work

I think this is the key phrase "All masters operating commercially in categorised waters and limited coastal areas must be qualified under the BML Regulations."

Come on Euromillions !!

 

[The engineer]

Glad to put your mind at rest.... wouldn't want you to lose the deposit I am sure you have put down in anticipation of the win

 

[Reverend Ludd]

I was ready mate but for some reason they wouldn't take a cheque

 

[alant]

I think this is the key phrase "All masters operating commercially in categorised waters and limited coastal areas must be qualified under the BML Regulations."

Come on Euromillions !!

BML's are different, they cover commercial vessels with more than 12 passengers - up to 250 & are not one of the RYA 'franchised' qualifications.


In France (eg Antibe), the skipper must satisfy the local authorities & only he can take a superyacht in/out of harbour, unless a pilot is demanded because of size.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga-mnotice.htm?textobjid=A2972962E00EF8DA

 

[jfm]

The grey area I have encountered was with a 110' vessel that did not charter but was company owned for tax purposes. It was chartered to the owner for accounting purposes. Through this issue it was explained to me that if the vessel is privately registered and not chartered no quals were required. This came from the management company who deal with some of the largest yachts around.

I wouldn't take something as correct just becuase it was said by a management company. the good management companies do indeed have folks that kno the law, but many of the junior folk give out incorrect info

If a person sets up a company to own a boat, and charters the boat from the company (whether "for accounting purposes" or not, which is a daft woolly phrase that has no bearing on the question of whether the boat is chartered) then the boat is in commercial use unless (a) the charter fee covers only the running costs of the trip in question, not a profit element, which means it must be below market rate, AND (b) the "owner" should be an officer of the company and all other guests on board should be his family or friends. This is all in the law (Statutory Instrument 1998 No. 2771) and if any employee of a management co says anything different they have to be worng I'm afraid.

 

[Reverend Ludd]

Thanks for the link, it's interesting but I'm not sure it covers the situation that I am describing. ie I win the lotto and buy a huge superyacht.

Can I as skipper get a bunch of buddies together and sail away.
I'm not trying to charter this vessel or be in any ones employ or employ anyone else. Just sail my yacht "fictitious"

 

[The engineer]

jfm
Yes precisely the situation, charter to the beneficial owner who was an officer of the company and strictly friends and family used the boat. No profit made.
The person telling me this was the owner of said management company of some repute, Hence my belief in his knowledge.
It gets interesting it seems when the boat is commercially and not privately registerd and operating in this fashion. Private registration was deemed to be necessary.

 

[jfm]

Thanks for the link, it's interesting but I'm not sure it covers the situation that I am describing. ie I win the lotto and buy a huge superyacht.

Can I as skipper get a bunch of buddies together and sail away.
I'm not trying to charter this vessel or be in any ones employ or employ anyone else. Just sail my yacht "fictitious"

I wasn't answering your question!

Your question depends on flag state. If red ensign group then I think you may not self drive unless it is below 200gt or 24m (I don't know which, but they both equate to about 90-94 feet LOA). But I'm not sure and cannot immediatley point you to the law, so I'm happy to be corrected

A friend of mine has just taken delivery of a 34m Huisman and he is experienced and wants to self drive, but he has hired a 500t skipper to sit on board and be the official captain while he self drives. No commercial use involved here; it is a VAT-paid private yacht not on charter. That implies you cannot self drive above 24m/200gt in a sensible flag state at least.

Despite self driving he has 5 crew to keep it clean, as discussed above!

 

[jfm]

Yes precisely the situation, charter to the beneficial owner who was an officer of the company and strictly friends and family used the boat. No profit made..

Then yes, that is not commercial use within English law and all the coding requirements/captain's commercial endorsement etc requiements need not be complied with

It gets interesting it seems when the boat is commercially and not privately registerd and operating in this fashion. Private registration was deemed to be necessary

On a red ensign boat, the folks who advised that private registration is needed are I think wrong. The law of the land is in the link in my post, and anyone can see that private vs commercial registration is not a relevant factor in decising whether a yacht is in commercial or private use for the purposes of English law. I have had three boats registered as part 1 commercial, red ensign, and not operated them according to commercial rules when I (as director + shareholder of the owning company) was using them for no profit with friends and family on board, so i hope I'm not wrong on this... Do remember that if something is to be prohibited in English law there has to be a piece of law prohibiting it; you're not looking for law that allows it. So I'd ask the person giving this advice "show me the law". (And I'm happy to be corrected if someone can actually show me the law)

 

[The engineer]

I believe you are correct with regard to commercial registration but that is the grey area I was referring to earlier.

As you point out

"Then yes, that is not commercial use within English law and all the coding requirements/captain's commercial endorsement etc requiements need not be complied with"

In theory then, when Mr Ludd buys his yacht he can indeed sail it off!... unless there is some written law prohibiting him skippering the boat.
I guess that is the remaining question here:

Is there a law prohibiting the use of a yacht without a qualification if it is for private purposes only? If so, is there a size stipulation?

 

[Reverend Ludd]

I wasn't answering your question!

Your question depends on flag state. If red ensign group then I think you may not self drive unless it is below 200gt or 24m (I don't know which, but they both equate to about 90-94 feet LOA). But I'm not sure and cannot immediatley point you to the law, so I'm happy to be corrected

A friend of mine has just taken delivery of a 34m Huisman and he is experienced and wants to self drive, but he has hired a 500t skipper to sit on board and be the official captain while he self drives. No commercial use involved here; it is a VAT-paid private yacht not on charter. That implies you cannot self drive above 24m/200gt in a sensible flag state at least.

Despite self driving he has 5 crew to keep it clean, as discussed above!

Sorry I'll have to use the quote button more often, I was thanking alan.
I totally agree with you on the 5 crew.

Your friend who hired the skipper, was he just being sensible or was he compelled by law do you know. I think the implication is that he was being sensible to be fair.

 

[jfm]

Your friend who hired the skipper, was he just being sensible or was he compelled by law do you know. I think the implication is that he was being sensible to be fair.

No he was doing it purely to comply with law. He is a very experienced sailor and can easily drive/sail/park a beautiful Royal Huisman yacht, almost with his eyes shut, but he doesn't hold a 500t ticket and doesn't wish to get one because the apprenticeship time needed for that doesn't suit his work schedule. So he hired a captain to be, technically, the captain but not drive the boat

So I think there is a law saying you can only drive >24mm LLL if you have a big ticket but I don't know which law and can't cite it, and don't have time to dig and find it right now...

 

[The engineer]

I guess that raises another issue of a private boat not having a documented and measured loadline to determine whether it is >24m

 

[Reverend Ludd]

The thing is I am often presented by "fact" that on closer examination turn out to be usual / sensible practice.

I'm going to try and ferret out the answer from somewhere.

Does the MCA have a worldwide remit ?

 

[The engineer]

A finite and backed up with evidence answer..... bit much for a forum

I for one would love to know, as I said many posts back I have never seen it documented.

The MCA only governs the manning of red ensigned boats.

 

[Reverend Ludd]

Interesting, I just telephoned the MCA leisure craft section and they were a little surprised by the question but said if there were no commercial aspects to the yacht (no company ownership,no passengers) then although they would recommend in the strongest terms if it were a private yacht then there is no law to prevent you sailing it.

The plot thickens