Qualification & the Med

[richardknight]

We're moving abroad and the boat is going to new home in a marina in NE Spain, we'll be living in France. Although we've sailed for 6 or 7 years now, we don't have any formal qualification save Day Skipper Theory. The yacht will remain English registered for a year or two.

Any ideas what the French or Spanish autorities view would be of us? Should we quickly get onto a Day Skipper Practical course and then get the ICC from the RYA, or can it wait 6 months or so with no real hassle?

Many thanks,

Richard


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[lindsay]

Six years permanent pottering in Spain, Italy and France and I have NEVER been asked for a proof of qualification-maybe because I have a Yachtmaster Ocean. However better to have a piece of paper of some sort just in case, especially for Spain where I hear the authorities can be difficult, especially if they think you are vulnerable ie a house owner locally. Re registration, why think of changing from UK? In France it is a distinct disadvantage to be French registered. You may have to juggle a bit with perceived residencies, but have yet to find anyone who has changed registrations voluntarily.

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[richardknight]

Interesting... our situation is that we would be French resident. We're moving lock, stock and barrel, but would like to keep the boat UK registered really mainly so we don't have to go through the French registration system for boats and people (i.e. certifications). Are there other reasons why it would be a dis-advantage to change the boat to French registered?

Nice to hear that you've never been asked for any piece of paper to prove qualifications. We're just checking now to see if I at least can squeeze a course in before we go (4 weeks time).

Thanks,

Richard

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[colvic]

Richard, we've been in spain for four years and Northern Spain for the last two. Only ever been asked for Insurance certificate in all that time, though always hand over the ICC as well.

How is the boat getting to Spain for if you are going through the French canals THEY will want to see the ICC when you apply for the licence.

Do all you can to keep the boat British registered. It is a lot easier. Spanish boats are subject to compulsory inspection on a regular basis and they DO know how to charge foreigeners. You'll see some ex British boats sold to Spaniards who have kept the British registration.

Which marina are you going to be using?


Phil

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[Sybarite]

As

My feeling is that if you change residence and your boat is based in France then theoretically you would be required to change the registration if only to pay the annual boat tax (vignette) which French nationals and non-French residents have to pay.

The vignette is a customs duty and non payment could have perhaps more serious consequences than non payment of a tax. However I am sure in practical terms they would give you an opportunity to "regularize" your situation if it ever came to the crunch.

As a Brit living in France I am required to wear the red ensign ( the French tricolour is reserved for French nationals ) and the fact that my boat is registered in Toulon always excites their curiosity. For the last couple of seasons when I go out on short sails I forget to put up my ensign and life has been much quieter. However as I was anchoring off Groix a few weeks ago a customs launch peeled off and came up behind me about 50 m off and photographed the transom. I think I may not forget the next time!


John

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[vyv_cox]

As I understand it, you don't need the ICC in France and Spain except inland. A British flagged vessel abroad is liable to the same rules and regs as if it was in UK. You don't need qualifications here, so you don't need them abroad.

The further you travel from UK, especially in the Mediterranean, the more difficult it seems to be to make this rule stick. See <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.rya.org.uk/Search.asp?searchKeyword=foreign+&searchCategory=0>RYA site</A> for full info.

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[richardknight]

Re: As

Hi John,

Thanks for your reply. Did you purchase your boat in France or take her with you there? If the latter, what were the implications for you once you'd changed her to French registered? i.e. I understand payment of vignette (roughly how much?), but what about certification (i.e. French version of RYA I guess) and anything you know of?

Thanks,

Richard

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[richardknight]

Hi Phil,

The boat will either go with a delivery crew, or more likely, overland with a French haulier collected from Cherbourg. We're still waiting for quote on this, but so far a delivery crew would be £2,300 and a container ship £3,983 (and only then to Palma). From other postings it seems that the overland route using French suppliers could be far, far cheaper.

Marina wise we're heading to Empuria-Brava where we reserved a berth some mnths ago. Likley we'll stay for a couple of years and then move to France where we're on the waiting list for a couple of marina's.

Where abouts are you?


Richard

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[jamesjermain]

As has been said elsewhere, you do not need a qualification as long as your yacht is on Part 1 of the British Register or Part 3 (SSR). As a non-resisdent UK citizen you can remain on the register but you will probably need a British address for renewal purposes.

However... you will need an ICC with CINVEN endorsement for going through French canals and a ICC is handy if the boat is to be based long term in Spain as the local authorities do not always know the rules and can be very difficult.

If you have been sailing for a few years and have the Day Skipper theory, go straight for an ICC - see the RYA site for details - which can be gained through a recognised sea school.

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[colvic]

Hi Richard

Container shipping is very expensive unless you use dedictaed ports. A 40ft. steel cabin cruiser with flybridge etc. was taken from Gib to Hull for under £1400 last year but we were quoted £6000 from Valencia to Greece. Don't know where people get some of these prices from!

We are at present in Barcelona and quite soon will be going up and down the coast before going to Mallorca for the summer.

I'm pleased you were able to resrve a berth as it is becomming moreand more dificult to get hold of one now. Chapjust left here for Denia and had to pay the full year up front before he left, and they would only take cash paid direct into their account. The cost was €5600 for a year for a 10 mtr. berth...as bad as the UK.

Hope all goes smoothly


Phil

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[Roberto]

In France there are no qualification required for french sail boats at sea (except for commercial use), only for powerboats.
Plus, as Vyv said, if you sail a foreign registered boat the only rules that apply to you are those of the country of registration of the boat, captain nationality is irrelevant.

If you want to keep your boat uk registered, your biggest concern will be the UK authority, which requires proof of uk residency; no problems with French authorities, yuo may (if you wish so) register the boat in france with a simple copy of electricity or telephone bill, no problems to keep it uk registered though.

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[vyv_cox]

Berths in Spain

Is your statement true for all parts of Mediterranean Spain? I am only too aware that the Balearics are effectively full but I understood that the mainland was much easier. Unlikely to want a full-time berth but will be looking for medium-term visitor berths from next year.

Thanks for your info

Vyv

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[Paulka]

Re: Berths in Spain

Have a look at my post In the "live aboard" forum, under "Wintering in the Balearics".


I was told that you can become a member of the club at Colonia San Pere, with a permanent right to a berth (not a free berth though!) for an entry fee of 7'000 euros.
I didn't check the accuracy of this statement though!




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[Andrew_B]

Richard

You have probably got the message by now that there are no advantages in registering the boat in France.Indeed in the French marina I am in there are several French boats that fly the red ensign without actually being registered in the UK at all.It is just common knowlege that if you fly a red ensign you dont get hassle from the authorities.
Whilst there are no compulsary sailing qualifications there are a few unwritten rules which you might want to follow when sailing in France to help you fit in-
1)Give way to NO-ONE! Port tack, Starboard tack , motoring, sailing (forwards or backwards) its all the same.
2)So as not to appear strange it is advisable to take all your clothes off the moment you leave the marina and only put them on when returning.When anchored make a point of going forward the check the anchor and touch your toes every 10mins like this.
3)You must try and perfect the art of motoring whilst under full sail whatever the conditions.
4)When entering an anchorage make sure you anchor as close as possible to the only other boat there (over their anchor is always good)

Whilst the above are not yet compulsary most people seem to follow them to the letter.

Happy sailing

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[Sybarite]

Re: As

I was/am resident in France and bought the boat here. It was previously registered to a French national with an "Acte de Francisation" (AdF). As only a French nationals can have this, foreigners resident in France must get a "Passeport". To all intents and purposes the treatment is the same - same tax rates etc. (I will look up the vignette rates and post them separately)

It was explained to me at the time that, because I did not have the AdF, I could not wear the French flag and that the nationality (as far as the French authorities are concerned) follows that of the owner and consequently my boat should wear the Red Ensign which is the nationality inscribed on the "Passeport". A few seasons ago a custom's man asked me for my SSR and I replied that I did not have one and had no intention of getting one. He was clearly unsure of himself and didn't pursue the matter.

Shortly after getting my boat I intended to charter it out to defray costs. Charter companies in France insist on a safety control and certificate by the "Affaires Maritimes". The AF refused to do this on the grounds of the foreign flag and when I started mumbling about unfair practices and discrimination within the EEC as it was, they told me on the other hand they could not enforce the stringent safety requirements that they could for boats with an AdF.

I confirm that no boat license is required. You only need one where the engine is > 10 HP AND where sail is not the principal means of propulsion. I believe as others have said that you need something for the inland waterways.

I also applied for a radio license which was refused on the grounds of the flag; the RYA also refused on the grounds of residence. So for 12 years I have been using an unlicensed radio. The only inconvenience was not been able to phone somebody but cell phones have solved that problem.

As far as transport is concerned I bought my boat in Toulon and kept it there for 2/3 seasons before bringing it to Brittany. I contacted a transport company and said that anytime they had an empty return trip then they could take mine. I got this shortly after for about half the normal price.

Can you not find a group of friends who would sail it down for you?

John



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[Sybarite]

Repost : boat tax rates in France

The rate depends on the rated customs tonnage of the boat, the age of the boat, where it’s registered, what the category of the owner is eg an association, sailing school, charity etc, and the fiscal horsepower of the engine. Exonerations may be claimed if the boat is kept outside of territorial waters.

Above 3 fiscal ‘tonneaux’ ( one tonneau = one barrel = 100 cubic feet ..! ? ) there is a fixed charge of €33.84 and then there are 5 tranches with a sliding scale from €23.02 to €31.56 per fiscal tonne above 3 tonnes. And then a rebate if the boat is over 10 years old.

Engines over 5 fiscal hp are taxed on a sliding scale within 6 tranches (from 6hp to 99hp) from €8.23 per hp above the 5th for the first tranche to €28.97 per hp above the 5th for the 5th tranche and then a 6th tranche at €45.28 from the 1st hp. There are rebates of 25% ( from 10-20 yrs old) 50% (20 – 25 yrs) and 75 % over 25 yrs but these rebates do not apply to the 6th tranche……

Simple quoi ..!

John

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[colvic]

Re: Berths in Spain

Hi Vyv,

It is getting VERY full anywhere south of Barcelona. Places such as Almerimar and Aquadulce have space during the summer as such a high percentage go to the Islands and lie at anchor for four or five months to save a small fortune in berthing fees are they really are going up now.

Gent near us in Barcelona has just set off for Denia in a 29'6" yacht and his mooring for a year cost him over €5400 and had to be paid in advance. Post Vell in Barcelona is fully booked for next winter already. Here in Port olimpico there are literally just a couple free for a year from a chandlers and the marina office are restricting stays to no more than a month.

Over ten meters is the problem and now lots of marinas have a charging band policy of upto 8 mtrs., then 12mtrs. then 15mtrs. so even a small craft such as us at 7.8mtrs sometimes has to pay for a 12mtr. berth.

In the summer you can easily be charged €30 a night and often much more.

Boat ownership is, by official statement, increasing at the highest rate anywhere in Europe and most of the world at almost 30% a year, and there is very little marina building going on, and in places it has been stopped with marinas only half completed.

If it carries on I can see us having to return to the UK in a couple of years time as it will then be cheaper there!


Phil

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[DeLam]

Re: Berths in Spain

Yes ,too true. My 10 metre boat which cost approx. £1700 2years ago
has gone up in two years to £5600. There was a lot of "getting rid of
black money" just before the introduction of the Euro with marina berths
and boats being high on the list. Not only Spaniards but Germans,etc..
This had the effect of making a short supply situation.
The problem is the more you spend on moorings the less there is for keeping the
boat up to scratch. Still,who cares about safety obviously not the greedy Marina owners. Of course this is of no interest to the RYA or MCA.either.
Derek

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[duncan]

Club Nautica in AmpuriaBrava didn't require any documents when we stayed there in 1998 but wanted to see insurance, ICC and radio licence on arrival in 1999 - and that was a 21ft'er.
Equally in daily trips out we were never asked for anything by the 'gentleman' by his cabin on the outer harbour until the day after a really vicious sea had been created from nothing one afternoon causing many small boats (most with small children) difficulties returning form nearby beaches - the next day boats were being pulled over to make sure that they all had appropriate lifejackets for the people on board. If not (1) big fine, (2) not allowed to leave canal. No warnings. Stories in the bars later indicated that anyone quering the basis for the rules/legislation etc got bigger fines and were referred to small print on things they had never looked at.
Unlike the French traffic police I actually felt myself supporting this action; especially as we had towed in a 14 ft'er with 2 tiny tots in armbands through 3 metre onshore seas the previous day!
Moral of the tale was that I saw the Spanish enforcing rules adn regulations because it was a sensible thing to do rather than because they existed - this can of course lead to confusion about what is actually in the regulations!

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[mpprh]

Hi again

I've researched a bit of this for France.

3m more than 10hp ........ need a license
11m sailboat (sails main form of propulsion) no license, even if it has a 30 hp engine.

Curious ,

But you need lots of other paperwork if the boat is registered in France !

Peter

http://tlp.netfirms.com


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