QHM Portsmouth Requiring Risk Assessments from Sailing Clubs.

Daydream believer said:
Provided the assessment is done sensibly, in the event of an accident, a risk that could not have been foreseen will not result in the club being unfairly penalised
Click to expand...

Maybe, but equally likely that it gives more evidence to the jobworths to interfere. We've already had one club member leave the club and the sport for good, over a safety incident, were they were a volunteer. There by the grace of god go I was the sentiment of most members, but not the jobsworth who noted reality did not follow documentation.
 
maxi77 said:
...but poor old QHM has the responsibility of making sure it is done within the Queens Harbour.
Click to expand...

From their web site:-

In compliance with Port Marine Safety Code, under the Maritime Safety Management System QHM is duty bound to view a Risk Assessment (RA) for all organised leisure events undertaken within the Dockyard Port of Portsmouth.

Seems to me that they have made themselves responsible for all "organised leisure events" without much thought to the scope and variety covered by that definition. "Organised leisure events which might reasonably become a danger to navigation" might have been a better definition. Surely all the risks to participants and organisers are the club's problem and that QHM could reasonably confine themselves to dangers to navigation.
 
Kurrawong_Kid said:
Form seems to fail the Hawaiin Dancing Girl Skirt Test. i.e. It should be long enough to cover the essential facts but short enough to be interesting.
Click to expand...

Must remember that one next time somebody submits a policy or risk assessment. We already have an operations manual that is about two inches thick!



Kurrawong_Kid said:
...will make voluntary Club organisations even more difficult to sustain without themselves employing such penpushers (or should I write keyboard tappers!)..
Click to expand...

Tell me about it. Like many clubs we have falling membership numbers and a struggle to find volunteers. We could do without anything that increases the committee's workload.
 
DJE said:
The risk assessment template is 17 pages long and looks a bit heavy for a bunch of kids sailing round the buoys in Toppers - or half a dozen yachts on a rally to Lymington for that matter.
Click to expand...
Try explaining that to

a) their parents;

b) the Coroner; and

c) to a judge and jury.

Item A will be the hardest.
 
Sandy said:
Try explaining that to

a) their parents;

b) the Coroner; and

c) to a judge and jury.

Item A will be the hardest.
Click to expand...

Indeed, the whole purpose is not as many suggest providing work for jobsworths, rather is is to prevent tragedy. A few years ago there was an unexpected squall hit a major event at Portland, many dinghies capsized but all were recovered and no major injuries or deaths occurred, the subsequent enquiry commented on the good risk assessment and the implementation of risk mitigation. Even 10 Toppers round the cans can result in a fatality
 
Sandy said:
Try explaining that to

a) their parents;

b) the Coroner; and

c) to a judge and jury.

Item A will be the hardest.
Click to expand...
Whether 7, 17 or 700 pages, no amount of paper will be of much use when an incident occurs - that is where common-sense, training, life jackets and a safety boat perhaps come in.

Any safety document longer than several sides simply will not be read by those for whom it was intended, so merely becomes an arse cover for those more interested in their neck than someone elses.
 
superheat6k said:
Any safety document longer than several sides simply will not be read by those for whom it was intended, so merely becomes an arse cover for those more interested in their neck than someone elses.
Click to expand...

:encouragement: I'd say one side maximum if it's not for specialists.
 
superheat6k said:
Whether 7, 17 or 700 pages, no amount of paper will be of much use when an incident occurs - that is where common-sense, training, life jackets and a safety boat perhaps come in.

Any safety document longer than several sides simply will not be read by those for whom it was intended, so merely becomes an arse cover for those more interested in their neck than someone elses.
Click to expand...

Totally agree, I converted the upstairs of a building into residential, did a H & S risk assesment 3 sides of A4, another firm did the downstairs 2 inches thick hard bound manual. Officially anyone coming onto site had to read the assesment before starting work I will let you guess whos risk assesment actually got read.
 
DJE said:
Have any other clubs received an email from QHM recently referring to this notice.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/qhm/portsmouth/leisure/events

QHM definition of “event": any vessel/s, craft or person/s participating in an organised gathering and/ or scheduled activity that may affect the safety of navigation or impact directly or indirectly on any other waterway users on the Dockyard Port of Portsmouth.

The risk assessment template is 17 pages long and looks a bit heavy for a bunch of kids sailing round the buoys in Toppers - or half a dozen yachts on a rally to Lymington for that matter.
Click to expand...

Seems entirely sensible, appropriate and proportionate to me - not sure why it generates so much huffing and puffing.
 
NormanB said:
Seems entirely sensible, appropriate and proportionate to me - not sure why it generates so much huffing and puffing.
Click to expand...

The QHM must balance leisure use, commercial and Navy + Security. Since the leisure users do not cooperate to organise their events QHM must. If events clash, QHM will not allow some. Presumably the cowboy Clubs with no risk assessments will be first to be deleted.
 
We operate a community rowing club in the vicinity of the Forth Bridges and produced one of these many years ago. You may have someone in your club who does this sort of thing. We covered both on water and on shore activities such as handling boats and trailers.
 
Elecglitch said:
:encouragement: I'd say one side maximum if it's not for specialists.
Click to expand...

With due respect. You are not looking at the risk assessment as a tool for the user but more of a tick sheet to cover the regs.
The risk assessment needs to be clear & concise but not so brief that it misses vital points. It needs to be easy to read & clear to understand.
The length is governed by the number of perceived risks. A high risk activity will need greater instruction for the user. Hence if it needs 20 pages then 20 pages is what it will be.
For instance
Any properly run club will hold training days for those operating safety boats. One does not just let anyone jump on the boat with no idea how to operate it, how to act when a dinghy capsizes. What to do if a dinghy starts to drift in the path of an approaching ship etc etc. A risk assessment should be on hand along with the method statement as a guide for the training schedule. Those being trained may not necessarily see the document but the training should follow the guidelines

Our gantry tractor has only 3 drivers & no one else has the keys, so that our gantry for moving boats is only handled under supervision of our own harbour master & a method statement has been written.
Ordinary dinghy sailors do not have to read that part of the assessment & method statement, but it is 6 pages long on its own.

So the point is that it is all down to common sense & acting in a responsible manner & complying with the requirements of the Portsmouth harbour authority. The club conveys the relevant information to those that need it. A bit like sailing instructions at the start of an open meeting.

Any comment about restricting to pages is just sheer nonsense. It is not hard to apply one's mind to the task & there is usually someone in the club who is quite willing to do all or part of it.
One plus is that an inward look at how things are done may often help make improvements in other ways.
 
Last edited:
Most risk assessments are not supposed to be written so that they are read by everyone. There should be an output from the risk assessment that is read e.g. regattas will not be held with windspeed above XX, or courses will not be laid in the vacinity of abcd if wxyz activities are happening, life jackets and safety lines will always be worn etc. A risk assessment is normally an input to other things e.g. operating procedures, instructions, detail design.

The most unreliable way off managing risk is only relying on common sense. Lots of sensible people have died because their common sense was not good enough. Then again, the worst formal control to risk is reams of procedures for exactly the reasons stated earlier i.e. no one reads them.
 
Last edited:
 
mainsail1 said:
So...... you have found an example that has nothing to do with risk assessments. Or normal sailors with common sense for that matter. The exception proves ......
Click to expand...

Goodness you're actually serious!! Self-satisfied complacency was obviously a gross understatement (and you clearly can't count) at least yours hasn't yet killed someone's 11 year old daughter yet (I guess?), but is well in line with these fellow WAFIs of yours.


Always good for a giggle.
 
mainsail1 said:
Nah! It's all junk. We got on just fine without risk assessments. Sailors used a thing called common sense.
QHM is making work for no good reason.
Click to expand...
Did anybody suffer serious injury or death, I suspect not. It is when the excretia hits the fan and you are asked for the "risk assessment" when you really, really wish you had done it as the full weight of the legal profession and press (and this forum) goes through everything with a fine tooth comb. Rather you than me.
 
mainsail1 said:
Nah! It's all junk. We got on just fine without risk assessments. Sailors used a thing called common sense.
QHM is making work for no good reason.
Click to expand...

And the risk assessment is just recording that common sense to show that you had it. It is surprising just how many people do not have common sense.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top