PWC (again)

[KevB]

Re: Considerate PWCs

ColinW,

Boy do you have a problem with others enjoyment. And yes you are a kill joy, I bet you don't get invited to many parties!!

A few ago I was a member of a committee who's aim was to bring some kind of compulsory training for pwc's, my qualifications for this was that I owned one (and still do so I am a prat in your eyes).

We met with various "official" bodies to discuss how pwc riders could take the lead amongst water users and get trained. The idea was to put pwc riders beyond the criticism of the narrow minded minority (ColinW, I put you in this category) by being trained where other water users may not have been.

All South coast pwc clubs bought into the idea, if only to high light that pwc riders were at least as good as any other water user.

Unfortunately the plans were scuppered by the RYA, the reason - because if pwc riders had to have compulsory training then why not all other leisure water users? The RYA believed that the sailing fraternity would not agree to this.

So Mr ColinW, next time you see a pwc rider congratulate him for wanting to bring training as a prerequisite for water use where others did not.

Oh, and go get a life!!

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[ColinW]

Re: Considerate PWCs

I am not a sailor as yet, my experiences (all negative) with PWCs have been as an angler, both afloat and ashore. I would agree with compulsory training for all boaters, whether it be a 13ft fishing boat, a 30ft yacht or a 100hp jet ski. It is strange isn't it that of all the users out on the water, one group gets singled out for so much (apparently unfair) criticism?
As a matter of fact, lunatics aside, I think PWCs should be banned on noise and pollution grounds alone. If jet skis had to pass the same regulations that motorbikes now have to pass, they'd all be gone tomorrow. If you look at a typical machine on sale in this country, Yamaha's GP800. Their own sales literature says it consumes 12.9 gallons per hour at full throttle. This is a normally aspirated two stroke engine, so 25 to 30% of that fuel goes straight into the water via the exhaust. You could be using that on Loch Lomond putting nearly four gallons of petrol an hour into peoples drinking water supply. In what world, killjoy or otherwise, is that acceptable behaviour?




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[KevB]

Re: Considerate PWCs

Well actually two strokes are being fazed out and I believe no longer available already in the USA. As for pwc's getting singled out, I believe dinghy sailors get a worse press on these forums than PWC's. Suppose you want to ban the also?

And when are you going to sort out your unmarked lobster pots, they are a bigger danger/nuisance than pwc's could ever be.

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[jfm]

Re: Considerate PWCs

ColinW
I agree about the polution thing, I mean as a general point fossil fuel consumption has to be improved. Not fair to blame Pwc-ers specifically though, we are all to blame to differing degrees. I mean what about all those people who drive to work with one person in the car? Well I'm a goody goody becuase I go on the train. But it's not really right to pick that sort of fight, so I dont, we all need to improve generally. 4 stroke Pwcs are coming by the way, compulsory in some US places including california I believe.

The fuel-in-water is a non issue becuase drinking water plant filters and separates out this and a loads of other crap. Even eco-firendly sailors dump human waste straight into the water. That gets dealt with in the drinking water processing plant too

Anyway you're right about polution in general, but that doesn't justify labelling all pwc-ers as tossers. Many PwCers may think it's cruel to haul fish ashore using a string attached to a sharp hook cutting through their gums - just for pleasure, without even intending to eat them! I'm not criticising you, just observing that you live in a glass house, as most of us do

 

[Sans Bateau]

Re: Considerate PWCs

Kevin

So what you are saying is that when we (power or sail boat) are sat at anchor having lunch with a glass of wine and the PWC arrives, running circles around our boat causing everything to go flying, or powersliding, dumping 25 - 50 ltrs of water into the cockpit as we approach Cowes, thats alright is it? So if we complain we are branded moaners or kill joys? Do you say then that we should just accept that this sort of thing is socialably acceptable?

You say many South coast clubs were willing to endorse training, which is commendable. The fact is, that the guilty parties that behave in this anti social manner will not be the member of any club or organisation, they are just hooligans. They know it is almost impossible to identify them or catch them. Trouble is that most likely the ONLY contact any of us ever have with a PWC user is a bad experience. So it is only reasonable that we generalise.

Going back to your first paragraph the only people spoiling others enjoyment is the PWC's spoiling others enjoyment, until there is a change in behavior of those individuals, you can count me in on the vote for banning PWC's.


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[jfm]

Re: Considerate PWCs

Etap that behaviour is unacceptable and is proably already banned by some law. I have seen hundreds of Pwcs having fun, and riden them a bit myself, but I've hardly ever seen anything even approaching that behaviour. Frankly you are exaggerating the extent of that behaviour, everyone knows PwCers dont generally do that. What we need is ban and enforcement of ban on THAT behaviour. Not a ban on PwCs. You wouldn't ban cars just because bank robbers use them as getaway vehicles would you?

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[KevB]

Re: Considerate PWCs

Out of interest how many times this season did you get buzzed by pwc's and how many times this year have you been cut up by someone driving a white van?
Should we ban those too???

Personally, I have been out in the Solent most weekends this season and have only been annoyed by pwc's once. In the same period I have been peeved at other motor boats, sail boats and dinghies numerous times. What's the big deal?

Lets not start on the ferries!! How many threads have their been on IOW ferries? Ban them?

At some point someone is going to pi$$ you off, be it a pwc, dinghy, botor boat, sail boat, ferry. The Solent is going to be a lonely place if we get rid of everything that someone has a bitch about.

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[robp]

Re: Considerate PWCs

Now you're talking about two separate issues! The <<PWC riders are just prats who haven't got the brains to pass a test so they can ride a motorbike>>, wouldn't have a clue about the environmental issues would they? So the ones with brains are also, hoodlums because they should know better than to cause pollution? Hope you; don't drive a diesel car/van, don't allow any nylon line to go free, don't fly anywhere and heaven forbid use unmarked pot bouys, although that's probably not your thing.

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[Sans Bateau]

Re: Considerate PWCs

The ONLY time I have had ANY contact with PWC's was, as decribed, NO exageration. I am very willing to assume that there are many PWC's out there, perfectly well behaved, those you do not see or hear of, they are just out to have a good day. I do not have a problem with them and would not wnat to spoil their enjoyment. As I already said, most peoples experience with PWC is bad news.

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[ColinW]

Re: Considerate PWCs

I have experienced exactly the same PWC circling round the boat behaviour, on Windermere, Loch Lomond and in the Mersey estuary. I won't be experiencing it on Windermere again and if there's anything I can do to prevent it at other places then so be it. All I want is to be rid of the idiots. The powerboaters on Windermere were given the opportunity to sort themselves out, they didn't, so from April they get banned. Good ones get banned with the bad ones. There seems to be a failure to understand a basic principle which should have been learned here. It's not the anglers, sailors, or even the idiots who caused the trouble that are going to suffer, it's the sensible powerboaters who suffer the most. So it's the sensible powerboaters who need to get their act together and sort out the problem. You sided with the idiots once, don't make that mistake again.


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[Will]

Re: Considerate PWCs

Kev,

I'm really sorry about this, but I couldn't resist.

You're protesting vehemently about Colin's sweeping generalisation, and the fact that such generalisation is borne of ignorance and intolerance, and the view of the "narrow minded minority" - yes?

Fair enough, I reckon Colin's being a bit harsh as well.

But - remember your stance on the hunting debate????

Nothing like a bit of generalisation is there...
;-)

Head down, ready to be flamed!!


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[jfm]

Exaggeration?

Etap I might be misunderstanding, but I'm struggling with what you write. You have sailed Solent 12 years and also west country, and the only time you have ever seen/come across PWC is when they dump 25-50 litres in an innocent boat's cockpit.? You have never seen a pwc NOT put 25-50 in someone's cockpit, right?

 

[ChrisE]

Re: Considerate PWCs

Will,

Funnily enough the same thought had crossed my mind! Tally ho!

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[jfm]

Re: Considerate PWCs

ColinW I agree with loads of that and you shouldn't be harassed by PWCs. I dont know about the tactics of Moboers on the windermere dispute becuase I did not keep up with that whole saga over the years, you may be right that the mobo group didn't fight their battle well.

I think folk understand your basic principle (that the innocent suffer more than the guilty). Where we disagree is on something more fundamental. You would I think ban all pwcs - that would make you the perpetrator of the innocents' suffering. I would instead take more targetted measures aimed only at the hooligans so as to respect the rights of the innocent pwcers

Let's look at it another way. There are 2 innocent groups here. There is you and etap etc who get harrassed by pwcers. You shouldn't have to suffer that. Then there are well behaved PWCers, they shouldn't have to suffer either. But your proposed solution (total ban) rides roughshod over the rights of that second innocent group and is thus uncivilised and unfair. I repeat, there are hooligan/criminal car drivers but you wouldn't support a ban on all cars, and the reason is that you are a car driver yourself (well, I'm guessing there, but you get the idea...). So you're in the positin of the innocent PWCer, aren't you?

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[KevB]

Re: Considerate PWCs

Can you point out where I generalised? A blood sport is a blood sport, pwc's are a water sport. You can get good and bad pwc'ers you can only get blood sport fans participating in a blood sport. No? I am not generalising when I say all blood sport fans are a sandwich short of a picnic, I am being specific. You either like blood sport or you don't!! And if you do someone is not going to get their sandwich. IMHO/forums/images/icons/wink.gif

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[KevB]

Re: Considerate PWCs

Yeah, yeah. jumping on someone elses band wagon. I take it you are a blood sport fan? If so proves my point......you're not capable of thinking for yourself.

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[Will]

Re: Considerate PWCs

Er, I think that you just answered your own question replying to Chris, did you not?

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[ChrisE]

Re: Considerate PWCs

Kevin,

I think that you are extremely good at making sweeping generalisations. I'm just against bans, period, including as it happens one on PWCs although, personally, I find them a pain.

And as you ask I'm neutral on hunting but you've already made your mind up on what my views are.

Incidently, I find that a little bit of tolerence goes a long way.


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[KevB]

Re: Considerate PWCs

You've lost me there. What question? I didn't generalise, I said all. Isn't that being specific?
Now if I said all blood sport fans must have small dicks because they have to chase a defenceless animal to death just to show their manhood - that would be generalising. True but generalising/forums/images/icons/wink.gif

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[jhr]

Even the women? nm

~

<hr width=100% size=1>Je suis Marxiste - tendance Groucho